Rear tires slipping in snow/slush

[TSO_NJ]

The primary reason we bought the Badlands is because we live on what passes for a mountain around here, and our road has a tricky section that has a slope of 20-25%.

Our road does become an unmaintained 2-track at the north end, but only for a few tenths of a mile. Still if/when we have to go out that way the BL may not be required but it will be helpful.

To be honest though, now that we are both retired, there is very little chance that we will be forced to go out to the north or drive on snow-covered roads. For us, the BL is not completely pointless, but it leans toward a "1% Solution."

Another factor is that our '97 RAV4 (which the BL replaced) has full-time AWD with a Torsen rear diff and a manually lockable center diff. It's a little beast in the snow -- esp on winter tires. I wanted to get something that was at least as capable.

Finally, I'm interested in AWD systems and appreciate what they can do. I enjoy the roller tests. The do a good job of pointing out the differences between the systems. It's easy to watch those tests and think, "I need the Badlands" -- or whichever vehicle has the most capable AWD system. In reality, it's mostly about bragging rights -- because the vast majority of us are driving on paved roads almost all the time (if not always).

None of that is a reason for most people to buy the BL instead of the 1.5L models. They are all capable. In fact, most people (including my wife & I) would be fine with a FWD vehicle with decent road clearance, traction control, and winter tires.

It sounds to me like you made a smart purchase for your situation.

Roger dat! We think alike. My first video watching the roller test comparison when I once owned a Crosstrek XV.

Sponsored

 

[sajohnson]

Bronco Sport trims Outer Banks and under are vastly different compared to the Badlands AWD system.

I think I'd seen these videos before, but I watched them again last night. They definitely point up the difference between the different BS AWD systems.

As I said above (#45):

"It's easy to watch those tests and think, "I need the Badlands" -- or whichever vehicle has the most capable AWD system. In reality, it's mostly about bragging rights -- because the vast majority of us are driving on paved roads almost all the time (if not always)."

Even in the snowbelt, unless there are mountains/steep hills, most people will be fine with a FWD vehicle with decent road clearance, traction control, and winter tires. After all, the most important factors are braking and handling -- and that comes down to the tires -- AWD is not involved.

One of the car mags did a comparison test years ago -- a 4WD Nissan Pathfinder on all-season tires vs a FWD Nissan Altima on winter tires (same brand, Dunlop?). The Altima was better in most tests -- braking, cornering, snow course time -- except hill climb and acceleration in which the Pathfinder was slightly better. It was long enough ago that the Altima likely did not have traction control.

I'll admit that it's pretty cool seeing the Badlands able to move with just one tire on pavement. In my mind, that's how ALL AWD systems should perform. I reality though, most of us rarely (if ever) need a system like that.

 

[sajohnson]

Roger dat! We think alike. My first video watching the roller test comparison when I once owned a Crosstrek XV.

<Gnashing teeth, pounding fist on table...>

This video is clearly an ad for Subaru. Nothing wrong with Subaru, I have a 2002 WRX, my brother in Iowa has an Ascent. The problem is that they keep hammering on "Symmetrical AWD" as being the reason the Subaru AWD systems perform so well (and the others do not). Needless to say, that's wrong.

ALL Subarus have a "symmetrical" drivetrain layout. A longitudinally mounted 4 or 6 cylinder boxer engine and transaxle with equal length half shafts. It's a good design that balances the vehicle, lowers the CoG, and eliminates torque steer.

What it DOESN'T do is contribute to the effectiveness of the AWD! If it did, then my WRX would pass the 'one wheel with traction' test with flying colors. Instead, it would sit and spin -- even with 2 or 3 wheels having traction it would not climb that ramp. It has VCUs center and rear, but they are pathetically weak so the car behaves as if it has 3 open diffs -- the power follows the path of least resistance. So sad.

The truth is that Subaru has used many different "AWD" systems over the years -- some very good, some ineffective -- all "symmetrical."

It's highly likely that they picked other "AWD" cars to test that have systems similar to my WRX -- to make the Subarus look better. I guess they can't be blamed for that, but they should be more upfront about it being a Subaru commercial.

What makes this video so insidious is that it does have a lot of factual information, but then they claim (several times) that drivetrain symmetry (or lack thereof) explains why Subaru's AWD = good, and every other auto mfr's AWD = BAD. It's just flat false.

The 2 Subaru models they cherry-picked obviously have competent AWD systems. Why not explain how they work, and how they differ from their competitors?

My guess is that it's just cynical marketing. Most people can understand a simple diagram like the one at 4:40. Getting into the various ways of managing torque might hurt potential buyers' brains. So they just chalk it up to their "symmetrical" drivetrain.

Homer sez: "Mmmm...symmetrical!"

 

[TSO_NJ]

<Gnashing teeth, pounding fist on table...>

This video is clearly an ad for Subaru. Nothing wrong with Subaru, I have a 2002 WRX, my brother in Iowa has an Ascent. The problem is that they keep hammering on "Symmetrical AWD" as being the reason the Subaru AWD systems perform so well (and the others do not). Needless to say, that's wrong.

ALL Subarus have a "symmetrical" drivetrain layout. A longitudinally mounted 4 or 6 cylinder boxer engine and transaxle with equal length half shafts. It's a good design that balances the vehicle, lowers the CoG, and eliminates torque steer.

What it DOESN'T do is contribute to the effectiveness of the AWD! If it did, then my WRX would pass the 'one wheel with traction' test with flying colors. Instead, it would sit and spin -- even with 2 or 3 wheels having traction it would not climb that ramp. It has VCUs center and rear, but they are pathetically weak so the car behaves as if it has 3 open diffs -- the power follows the path of least resistance. So sad.

The truth is that Subaru has used many different "AWD" systems over the years -- some very good, some ineffective -- all "symmetrical."

It's highly likely that they picked other "AWD" cars to test that have systems similar to my WRX -- to make the Subarus look better. I guess they can't be blamed for that, but they should be more upfront about it being a Subaru commercial.

What makes this video so insidious is that it does have a lot of factual information, but then they claim (several times) that drivetrain symmetry (or lack thereof) explains why Subaru's AWD = good, and every other auto mfr's AWD = BAD. It's just flat false.

The 2 Subaru models they cherry-picked obviously have competent AWD systems. Why not explain how they work, and how they differ from their competitors?

My guess is that it's just cynical marketing. Most people can understand a simple diagram like the one at 4:40. Getting into the various ways of managing torque might hurt potential buyers' brains. So they just chalk it up to their "symmetrical" drivetrain.

Homer sez: "Mmmm...symmetrical!"

I never bought into the "symmetrical" marketing.

My vehicle from 1978 to 1988 was a Ford F-150 4X4 pickup truck and the front differential was offset to the driver side. Never experienced any problems when taking it off-road.

The 2013 Crosstrek XV went through a little over 6 inches of snow at 40 to 45 MPH on Interstate 295 in New Jersey, and maintained control and traction. Plus I would take it on the sand roads in Wharton State Forest and never got stuck on sections with long stretches soft sand.

A driver's operational skills and knowledge should outweigh the vehicle's capabilities.

The driver in this video attempted to use the vehicle as a watercraft:



The driver lacked the knowledge and over estimated the vehicle's capabilities.

 

[sajohnson]

I never bought into the "symmetrical" marketing.

My vehicle from 1978 to 1988 was a Ford F-150 4X4 pickup truck and the front differential was offset to the driver side. Never experienced any problems when taking it off-road.

The 2013 Crosstrek XV went through a little over 6 inches of snow at 40 to 45 MPH on Interstate 295 in New Jersey, and maintained control and traction. Plus I would take it on the sand roads in Wharton State Forest and never got stuck on sections with long stretches soft sand.

A driver's operational skills and knowledge should outweigh the vehicle's capabilities.

The driver in this video attempted to use the vehicle as a watercraft:



The driver lacked the knowledge and over estimated the vehicle's capabilities.

Woops.

I was surprised they got it running again. Usually when an engine is hydrolocked it's toast.

There are benefits to Subaru's symmetrical drivetrain layout, but better AWD operation is not one of them.

It sounds like your Crosstrek XV did very well. I wonder which AWD system it had?

Nice truck!

40-45 mph through 6" of snow is moving right along. I worked night shift for 27 years, so by the time I left for home at 11 PM there was hardly anyone on the road. It was rare to have that much snow on the interstates and state highways (usually the plows were out) but there were a few times when it was that deep (or deeper). In my little Nissan NX2000 with winter tires I might do 30-35. In my RWD Toyota Truck with chains and 350# in the bed I'd do 40-45 mph. Of course that's with no traffic -- nothing to hit except the guardrail.

One night I was driving home on I-270 in the NX. There was maybe 4-5" of unplowed snow. I could hear it scraping on the floor pan. I was doing about 25-30 mph in the far left lane and slowly passing a wanna-be monster truck (the only other vehicle) in the far right lane (lane #4 or 5?). It was a lifted Suburban with huge tires on it. As I passed it, I noticed that the driver was speeding up. Even though they were several lanes over, I didn't want to have them that close, so I sped up a bit. Then they increased their speed some more, and so on. Finally we were doing about 40 mph and I noticed their rear end start to get loose. They kept pushing it though and ended up doing a bunch of 360s and coming to a stop against the Jersey Wall.

D'OH!!

Moral of the story -- FWD and winter tires can do a lot -- and the NX is really low to the ground. A higher clearance vehicle would have done better. Wide tires just ride on top of the snow.

 

[TSO_NJ]

Woops.

I was surprised they got it running again. Usually when an engine is hydrolocked it's toast.

There are benefits to Subaru's symmetrical drivetrain layout, but better AWD operation is not one of them.

It sounds like your Crosstrek XV did very well. I wonder which AWD system it had?

Nice truck!

40-45 mph through 6" of snow is moving right along. I worked night shift for 27 years, so by the time I left for home at 11 PM there was hardly anyone on the road. It was rare to have that much snow on the interstates and state highways (usually the plows were out) but there were a few times when it was that deep (or deeper). In my little Nissan NX2000 with winter tires I might do 30-35. In my RWD Toyota Truck with chains and 350# in the bed I'd do 40-45 mph. Of course that's with no traffic -- nothing to hit except the guardrail.

One night I was driving home on I-270 in the NX. There was maybe 4-5" of unplowed snow. I could hear it scraping on the floor pan. I was doing about 25-30 mph in the far left lane and slowly passing a wanna-be monster truck (the only other vehicle) in the far right lane (lane #4 or 5?). It was a lifted Suburban with huge tires on it. As I passed it, I noticed that the driver was speeding up. Even though they were several lanes over, I didn't want to have them that close, so I sped up a bit. Then they increased their speed some more, and so on. Finally we were doing about 40 mph and I noticed their rear end start to get loose. They kept pushing it though and ended up doing a bunch of 360s and coming to a stop against the Jersey Wall.

D'OH!!

Moral of the story -- FWD and winter tires can do a lot -- and the NX is really low to the ground. A higher clearance vehicle would have done better. Wide tires just ride on top of the snow.

Great experience! Sounds like it was your driving skills and knowledge, plus understanding the capabilities of the Nissan that surpassed the same of the other driver.

Plus there are benefits to creating our own tracks in fresh snow so long as we can follow the pavement and avoid bottoming out, compared to driving on packed snow with multiple tracks.

Thanks! Yep the F-150 was the one vehicle I truly miss. Got married in 1985, had our first child in 1986, and needed to purchase a single family home. The home shown behind the truck is a condominium and was way too small to raise a family. Too close to the road with a small back yard, it was not safe enough for when our son became older.

 

[Jparadacen]

This is the second post I read related to rear end sliding. The other post said it was during heavy rain.

I haven't experienced that during rain BUT the other day I was driving at 30-40kph and I didn't see there was a speed bump ahead so I brake kinda hard and I felt the rear end sliding to the right, so I countersteer a little bit and then it slides to the left. This was during dry conditions and low speed so it was very weird.

I'm starting to wonder if there's any kind of issue with the BS design or with the rear end only.

 

[KidWiff]

This is the second post I read related to rear end sliding. The other post said it was during heavy rain.

I haven't experienced that during rain BUT the other day I was driving at 30-40kph and I didn't see there was a speed bump ahead so I brake kinda hard and I felt the rear end sliding to the right, so I countersteer a little bit and then it slides to the left. This was during dry conditions and low speed so it was very weird.

I'm starting to wonder if there's any kind of issue with the BS design or with the rear end only.

Perhaps there is an issue with the Anti-lock braking system? or was there a layer of sand on the roadway? I wouldn't expect the car to experience that sort of behavior unless the wheels locked up during hard braking... especially on a clean dry surface.

 

[sajohnson]

Great experience! Sounds like it was your driving skills and knowledge, plus understanding the capabilities of the Nissan that surpassed the same of the other driver.

Plus there are benefits to creating our own tracks in fresh snow so long as we can follow the pavement and avoid bottoming out, compared to driving on packed snow with multiple tracks.

Thanks! Yep the F-150 was the one vehicle I truly miss. Got married in 1985, had our first child in 1986, and needed to purchase a single family home. The home shown behind the truck is a condominium and was way too small to raise a family. Too close to the road with a small back yard, it not safe enough for when our son became older.

I don't want to brag, but I am such a good driver that I've been barred from all forms of motor sports worldwide.

The MD MVA has declared that speed limits do not apply to me.

Actually, I'd probably be about average on a track. I don't have great hand-eye coordination.

The advantage I had was working night shift (3 to 11 PM) for 27 years. That meant no rush hour traffic. I was able to "follow the example set by the fine men and women of the MSP." (except of course I did not have their 'diplomatic immunity.') So I generally kept it under 85 mph, because over 85 was a big fat ticket and 5 points.

I could safely explore the limits of handling in the snow. During snow storms I'd often only see a handful of cars on the 37 mile (or longer, up to 50 miles) commute to work. I could test the brakes and steering as often as I wanted.

In short, I had a lot of practice that most people do not have the opportunity to get. More than once, I passed MSP cruisers stuck in the median. They were probably young troopers, because the more experienced ones can drive.

I've done some stupid stuff, but in almost 1,000,000 miles of driving, I've never had an 'at-fault' accident. There is more than a little luck involved though.

There are plenty of people who, with some training, could be much better drivers than I am. The problem often is not a lack of skill, it's a lack of experience. For example, many drivers seem to know little/nothing about cars and are influenced by car & truck commercials. Mfrs often show their cars being driven way too fast in the snow -- especially "AWD" vehicles, when of course AWD/4WD doesn't help a vehicle stop. So around here (and I gather other parts of the country) people with more money than sense will buy an expensive SUV and think it is immune to the laws of physics. They'll blow down a snow-covered interstate at 70+ mph thinking they are invincible. Often, they'll end up in the ditch or against a guardrail.

There seems to be no shortage of people like that.

 

[sajohnson]

Perhaps there is an issue with the Anti-lock braking system? or was there a layer of sand on the roadway? I wouldn't expect the car to experience that sort of behavior unless the wheels locked up during hard braking... especially on a clean dry surface.

Good question about sand. ABS does not always kick in at slower speeds. 30-40 kph = 19-25 mph.

 

[Dennis Kilbride]

I experienced the same yesterday in northern Minnesota. The roads were def bad and I could feel it too. This was also my first test with the Big Bend and although I was somewhat surprised it simply is not a F150 in 4x4. I kept my speed down.

 

[sajohnson]

I experienced the same yesterday in northern Minnesota. The roads were def bad and I could feel it too. This was also my first test with the Big Bend and although I was somewhat surprised it simply is not a F150 in 4x4. I kept my speed down.

Nice photo!

Just curious -- did you try the "Slippery" and/or "Sand" GOAT modes?\

BTW -- The manual says to use Slippery on snow, and specifically says NOT to use Sand, but it's not clear to me why.

 

[RushMan]

Perhaps there is an issue with the Anti-lock braking system? or was there a layer of sand on the roadway? I wouldn't expect the car to experience that sort of behavior unless the wheels locked up during hard braking... especially on a clean dry surface.

I wonder if it is the ADVANCETRAC™ WITH RSC® (anti-roll auto-stability system nanny) or trailer anti-sway doing it's nanny thing. Just an idea.

 

[Mark S.]

BTW -- The manual says to use Slippery on snow, and specifically says NOT to use Sand, but it's not clear to me why.

The manual states:

Sand
Sand mode is for off-road driving
on soft, dry sand or deep snow.
Sand mode engages the
four-wheel drive lock.

Slippery
For less than ideal road
conditions such as snow or ice
covered roads. This mode can
be used for crossing terrain where a firm
surface is covered with loose, wet or
slippery material. Slippery mode lowers
throttle response and optimizes shifting
for slippery surfaces.

SAND mode allows higher engine revs and more wheel spin, which can be useful in sand or deep snow. You want LESS wheel spin on icy/slippery surfaces, so the PCM reduces throttle response and short shifts to keep engine revs down.

 

[tabitham72]

I experienced the same yesterday in northern Minnesota. The roads were def bad and I could feel it too. This was also my first test with the Big Bend and although I was somewhat surprised it simply is not a F150 in 4x4. I kept my speed down.

Did you have it on slippery mode or did you turn slippery mode after you felt the tires slip? How fast were you going when you felt the slip, and did you feel it again? The roads I am going to be driving on are going to get bad starting tomorrow, I just don’t know what I’m going to do other than drive super slow.