Rear tires slipping in snow/slush

[tabitham72]

I wouldn't feel too bad about that. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to be more of a 'video game' feature. Granted, it would be helpful in your case to see if the rear end getting loose is due to power transfer to the rear -- but regardless of the cause, it's happening.

Even if you had the AWD screen, you'd try Slippery (and maybe Sand) modes regardless of what the screen indicates

BTW -- it's easy to miss features, especially on new cars.

<Grumpy old dude> Back in the 20th century, cars only had a drivetrain; brakes, and suspension -- and we LIKED IT!

Seriously, there was a lot less to focus on. Even so, when I bought my 5MT 2002 WRX, I missed the fact that Subaru used a LAME AWD system on the MT cars. A more honest slogan would have been, "From the wheels that grip, to the wheels that slip!"

That said, I would not have bought the automatic just to get the reasonably competent AWD, because it was just an ordinary 5AT -- no dual clutch with paddle shifting -- probably the same 5AT Subaru used in the Forester. Also, even thought my WRX has essentially open diffs (the VCUs are very weak), I had Michelin X-Ice dedicated winter tires so it did OK, except for the 20-25% slope hill on our road -- if the snow was more than a few inches deep -- then "the path of least resistance" took over and it became ONE (1) wheel drive. D'OH!

Then wifey would rescue me with her (3WD) RAV4 on winter tires. We could stop that thing half-way up the steep hill in a foot of snow and it would start rolling forward again with no tire spin! The WRX with it's pathetic "AWD" was left at the bottom until the road was cleared.

So sad.

Wishing I had my RAV4 right about now ?

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[sajohnson]

So I will try sport mode and see if there may be a difference Waiting for a storm early next week. Thanks

The BS owner's Manual says:


SLIPPERY

"For less than ideal road
conditions such as snow or ice
covered roads. You can use this
mode for crossing terrain where loose, wet
or slippery materials covers a firm surface.
Slippery mode lowers throttle response
and optimizes shifting for slippery surfaces.
The rear differential lock feature is
available in slippery mode. When enabled
it is engaged below 15 mph (24 km/h).
Note: Do not use this mode on dry, hard
pavement. This could produce some
vibration, driveline bind up, and potential
excessive tire and vehicle wear depending
on the four-wheel drive mode selection."

~~~

Unfortunately, the rear diff lock is N/A on the 1.5L models (the manual does not have separate 1.5L and 2.0L descriptions of "Slippery Mode").

It is unclear whether this mode automatically engages 4WD lock, which some other modes do. I hope it does, because that should eliminate the PTU switching between FWD and AWD.

I'll post "Sand Mode" next...

 

[sajohnson]

Wishing I had my RAV4 right about now ?

Just to be clear -- the (Gen 1) RAV was like the WRX, except it was the 5AT version that was essentially ONE (1) wheel drive.

We knew we wanted a 5MT model with the manually locking center diff and (optional) Torsen limited-slip rear, but the dealer only had an automatic so we drove it, just to get a feel for the ride and handling.

It was parked on the (dry) grass beside their building. I started it, released the brake, put it in 'drive' and...nothing. RPM increased but no-go. We opened our doors and looked at he tires and found the *right front* was spinning, the others were stationary, not even trying to move.

That "AWD" RAV was stuck, on level ground, because the right front tire was over a slight depression. Pathetic.

I think part of the Monroney Sticker should be an indication of the TRUE # of drive wheels, under conditions that require torque transfer -- like 3 on ice/rollers, one on dry pavement. As it is, mfrs are free to lie and deceive potential buyers.

"Yeah, it's four-wheel drive, just like a Hummer!:

 

[sajohnson]

From the manual:

SAND [NOT recommended for snow-covered pavement]

"For more spirited off-road driving. Sand mode is for off-road driving on soft, dry sand or deep conditions. Lower gears hold longer in sand mode to maintain momentum in soft conditions. Sand mode engages the four-wheel drive lock, which you can switch off using the drive mode controller. Sand mode optimizes braking for off-road conditions, allowing quick path corrections and minimized stopping distance when on deformable surfaces. The engine sound enhances when in sand mode."

"The rear differential lock feature enables in sand mode. When enabled it is engaged below 30 mph (48 km/h). You can disable the feature using the drive mode controller. Note: The front camera system switches on when you are in sand mode. You can switch the camera off using the button on the audio unit. Note: Using sand mode on dry, hard surfaces could produce some vibration, driveline bind up, potential excessive tire wear and vehicle wear. Note: Do not use on firm, slippery surfaces, such as paved roads covered with snow or ice or driving on packed snow. For slippery, firm surfaces use slippery mode."

~~~

I like that it specifically says, "Sand mode engages the four-wheel drive lock." It would seem that's what's best in extreme winter conditions. One note, when we locked the center diff in the RAV (on snow) it would 'crab' -- so we generally did not do that except when maximum traction was needed. Obviously, the BS may behave differently.

This is not advice, but personally, if "Slippery" mode did not work well, I'd try Sand mode (on 100% snow/ice) just out of curiosity. No warranty expressed or implied.

Needless to say the most important feature of "Sand Mode" is:

"The engine sound enhances when in sand mode."

 

[tabitham72]

Just to be clear -- the (Gen 1) RAV was like the WRX, except it was the 5AT version that was essentially ONE (1) wheel drive.

We knew we wanted a 5MT model with the manually locking center diff and (optional) Torsen limited-slip rear, but the dealer only had an automatic so we drove it, just to get a feel for the ride and handling.

We had the 4th generation RAV4, didn’t get stuck or slip once in 6 years we owned it, got totaled in an accident by a driver who wasn’t paying attention and side swiped us. Good car, too bad.

It was parked on the (dry) grass beside their building. I started it, released the brake, put it in 'drive' and...nothing. RPM increased but no-go. We opened our doors and looked at he tires and found the *right front* was spinning, the others were stationary, not even trying to move.

That "AWD" RAV was stuck, on level ground, because the right front tire was over a slight depression. Pathetic.

I think part of the Monroney Sticker should be an indication of the TRUE # of drive wheels, under conditions that require torque transfer -- like 3 on ice/rollers, one on dry pavement. As it is, mfrs are free to lie and deceive potential buyers.

"Yeah, it's four-wheel drive, just like a Hummer!:

 

[tabitham72]

We had a fourth generation RAV4, never slipped or got stuck in six years that we owned it. Got sideswiped and totaled the car few months ago careless driver. Good car..

 

[tabitham72]

We had a fourth generation RAV4, never slipped or got stuck in six years that we owned it. Got sideswiped and totaled the car few months ago careless driver. Good car..

 

[sajohnson]

From above:

"CR gave the Bridgestone Blizzak WS90 the same overall rating of 73/100 (it and the Michelin X-Ice are the top 2). From the individual ratings (handling, braking, etc.) though, the Blizzak actually looks slightly better. Anyway, either of those 2 tires is a good choice."

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that Chama gets a lot of snow.

If you are like us and can stay home until the roads are cleared, then winter tires may not be necessary. Otherwise, in my role as random internet person, I strongly recommend either of those 2 winter tires. They really do make a huge difference. Using them will allow your OE tires to last longer, so the only additional cost is the wheels.

You can buy just the loose winter tires, but then you have to pay to have tires mounted and balanced in the spring and fall. Sometimes scheduling the work is a hassle if there is a storm coming. With them already on wheels you can install them yourself or pay to have it done (much cheaper than mounting and balancing.

 

[sajohnson]

We had a fourth generation RAV4, never slipped or got stuck in six years that we owned it. Got sideswiped and totaled the car few months ago careless driver. Good car..

I'm sorry about your RAV. I hope you got a fair settlement.

Ours had a tree branch fall on it. It slightly dented the roof. Of course the insurance company wanted to total it and give us 29 cents (IIRC their offer was $1,100). The actual value was thousands more. I was able to get them to pay for the repair (maybe $1,800). We got more time out of it but about 2 years ago it developed enough problems that we decided to buy the BS BL.

We still have the RAV. It looks good (no visible rust) and runs fine -- even the A/C works. I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. It would be a good parts car.

I have no idea how the later generation RAV4 was set up. It could very well have had an excellent AWD system. The auto mfrs use a wide range of systems, and periodically change them from one year/generation to the next. While the AWD system on my first generation 5MT WRX is very basic and ineffective, the "STi" version of the WRX (also manual trans) had/has an excellent system. Worlds apart. Subaru alone has used maybe 6 different AWD systems over the years.

I just found this article (not that I expect anyone to read it, just for example):

"Not every Subaru all-wheel-drive system is created equal
Though they all carry the same badge and moniker, there are actually quite a few different versions of Subaru's AWD system in use today."
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/not-every-subaru-all-wheel-drive-system-is-created-equal/

Something else that comes into play are the conditions under which an "AWD" vehicle is driven. I had my WRX for a year or two before I realized how ineffective the AWD is. I had inadvertently stopped on our lane with the 2 rear tires on ice, in order to close the gate. When I went to pull froward, the rear tire(s?) spun and the WRX rolled backwards!

To be fair, that was a somewhat unusual situation. Typically, all 4 tires have approx. equal traction and therefore the AWD system is not 'tested' -- it does not have to transfer torque because there is no difference in traction. In which case, ANY system will work fine.

It's when only 1 or 2 tires have traction, and the torque wants to follow the path of least resistance (the spinning tires), that the differences in AWD systems become apparent.

 

[point78]

You shouldn't be feeling the rear slipping.

I've been driving forever in snow and mountains with all different vehicles.

My Broncosports all wheel drive system amazes me every time I'm out in the snow at how good it is, its so good that I normally don't even bother putting it into slippery mode-normal works flawlessly. In fact, its disappointing if I actually DO try and get the thing to slide around a bit without turning off the computers.

(I do have the screen where I can watch where the torque is going. Slippery mode does seem to engage the rear more often/sooner fyi.)

I have no idea how it does it, but whatever its doing is like magic and totally seamless.

(the Subaru systems, which I'm extremely familiar with- typically need some amount of wheel slip before it "engages". and while the bronco does to, (unless you have it all locked in), its vastly less than the Subarus. )

If you are really feeling the rear end slipping on snow and slush-vs like pure ice, something is off.

(putting it in sand mode disables some of the stability/traction control, allowing you to have a good amount of wheel slip, so you can slide and play around a bit-exactly what you DON'T want. lol)

I don't have any experience with the tires you have, I have the wild peaks. I'm a big believer in having snow tires, but the wild peaks are good enough to the point I didn't and don't plan on running dedicated winter tires on it.

Its either your tires, or something isn't working correctly in your stability/traction control...

 

[tabitham72]

From above:

"CR gave the Bridgestone Blizzak WS90 the same overall rating of 73/100 (it and the Michelin X-Ice are the top 2). From the individual ratings (handling, braking, etc.) though, the Blizzak actually looks slightly better. Anyway, either of those

Thanks

 

[tabitham72]

Thank you I am taking the car in next week to be looked at.

 

[21Broncosaurus]

Bronco Sport trims Outer Banks and under are vastly different compared to the Badlands AWD system.

 

[TSO_NJ]

Bronco Sport trims Outer Banks and under are vastly different compared to the Badlands AWD system.

Yep, definitely not the same. I purchased the Outer Banks primarily for fuel efficiency with soft road capability.

We take road trips and drive local daily with infrequent soft road access.

I would have purchased the Badlands IF our frequent trips were off-road.

Outer Banks:




Big Bend:

 

[sajohnson]

Yep, definitely not the same. I purchased the Outer Banks primarily for fuel efficiency with soft road capability.

We take road trips and drive local daily with infrequent soft road access.

I would have purchases the Badlands IF frequent trips were off-road.

Outer Banks:




Big Bend:

The primary reason we bought the Badlands is because we live on what passes for a mountain around here, and our road has a tricky section that has a slope of 20-25%.

Our road does become an unmaintained 2-track at the north end, but only for a few tenths of a mile. Still if/when we have to go out that way the BL may not be required but it will be helpful.

To be honest though, now that we are both retired, there is very little chance that we will be forced to go out to the north or drive on snow-covered roads. For us, the BL is not completely pointless, but it leans toward a "1% Solution."

Another factor is that our '97 RAV4 (which the BL replaced) has full-time AWD with a Torsen rear diff and a manually lockable center diff. It's a little beast in the snow -- esp on winter tires. I wanted to get something that was at least as capable.

Finally, I'm interested in AWD systems and appreciate what they can do. I enjoy the roller tests. The do a good job of pointing out the differences between the systems. It's easy to watch those tests and think, "I need the Badlands" -- or whichever vehicle has the most capable AWD system. In reality, it's mostly about bragging rights -- because the vast majority of us are driving on paved roads almost all the time (if not always).

None of that is a reason for most people to buy the BL instead of the 1.5L models. They are all capable. In fact, most people (including my wife & I) would be fine with a FWD vehicle with decent road clearance, traction control, and winter tires.

It sounds to me like you made a smart purchase for your situation.

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