Don't get an off-road ticket...

[NMhunter]

In the Forest Service, we call the NPS "the land of NO" A Ranger once spent 20 minutes telling we couldn't hike the route we planned in the Grand Canyon. They assume we're all idiots, just because so many they deal with are.

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[RWT]

Were your previous 4x4's manuals?

Some were, some were not. The Jeeps (Wranglers) were all manuals. The trucks were autos except one.

 

[sajohnson]

I think most people would echo your sentiments about NPS Rangers. Two of my closest friends are retired NPS Park Rangers and they are some easy going guys.

I agree. My wife and I have been to many national parks, and with very few exceptions, the Rangers have been friendly, professional, and polite.

One of the exceptions:

We used to buy annual park passes. At the park entrance, the Ranger used to ask for your driver's license along with the pass to confirm that the pass had not been 'loaned' to you.

So we pulled up to the window at the entrance. The Ranger was a young woman and initially was smiling and very friendly. After some brief small talk, she asked for our pass and my license. Suddenly her expression changed dramatically. She became very angry and accused me of "trying to defraud the U.S. government!" I was stunned. I asked why she would think that and she said my signatures didn't match!

I'll admit that while they shared some characteristics, they were noticeably different. The reason was that when we bought the pass we were also at an entrance, and the Ranger handed me a tiny clipboard and asked me to sign the with a Sharpie. The clipboard was not stable and the Sharpie slipped on the plastic card. So yeah, the signature was different. However, all she had to do was call the Ranger who sold it to us earlier that day. I suggested that and she refused! She was absolutely convinced that I was engaging in park pass fraud. Lock him up!

The entire time, we were parked at the entrance booth, which created a huge backup.

Something that just occurred to me is that a) I had a valid MD license for ID and b) the signature was sloppy but readable. So there was only one way I could 'get over' on the NPS -- I would have to have been incredibly lucky and found a pass owned by another person with my name.

Her investigation drug on for a good 20-25 minutes. Finally someone was able to convince her that I was not a criminal, and to cut us loose. She grudgingly handed my license and the pass back without a word. Certainly not an apology.

I believe the NPS changed their procedure since then. I think they must have had similar incidents, because instead of a signature, they now have the buyer write their Soundex # on the pass. Much better idea.

 

[sajohnson]

Some were, some were not. The Jeeps (Wranglers) were all manuals. The trucks were autos except one.

It's the manuals that benefit the most from low range gearing.

At least with an auto the torque converter can slip.

 

[GaryS]

A lawyer trying to make a name for themselves could beat and have some fun with this one....

all-wheel drive is not the same as four-wheel drive.

Really? All wheel drive means 4 wheels are engaged, the same as 4 wheel drive technically.

Any lawyers out there wanting to take this on for the Suby driver?

Tell that to Marisa Tomei. I'm sure she'll have a thing or two to say about it.

 

[TSO_NJ]

NPS.gov Policy

Off-Road Driving (U.S. National Park Service)

Executive Order 11644 - National Archives Office of the Federal Register (OFR)

"Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this order, the term:

(1) "public lands" means (A) all lands under the custody and control of the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Agriculture, except Indian lands, (B) lands under the custody and control of the Tennessee Valley Authority that are situated in western Kentucky and Tennessee and are designated as "Land Between the Lakes," and (C) lands under the custody and control of the Secretary of Defense;

(2) "respective agency head" means the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of Agriculture, and the Board of Directors of the Tennessee Valley Authority, with respect to public lands under the custody and control of each;

(3) "off-road vehicle" means any motorized vehicle designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain; except that such term excludes (A) any registered motorboat, (B) any fire, military, emergency or law enforcement vehicle when used for emergency purposes, and any combat or combat support vehicle when used for national defense purposes, and (C) any vehicle whose use is expressly authorized by the respective agency head under a permit, lease, license, or contract; and

(4) "official use" means use by an employee, agent, or designated representative of the Federal Government or one of its contractors in the course of his employment, agency, or representation.

[Sec. 2 amended by Executive Order 11989 of May 24, 1977, 42 FR 26959, 3 CFR, 1977 Comp., p. 120]"

 

[TSO_NJ]

Executive Order 11644--Use of off-road vehicles on the public lands

(c) The limitations on off-road vehicle use imposed under this section shall not apply to official use.

Sec. 4. Operating Conditions. Each respective agency head shall develop and publish, within one year of the date of this order, regulations prescribing operating conditions for off-road vehicles on the public lands. These regulations shall be directed at protecting resource values, preserving public health, safety, and welfare, and minimizing use conflicts.

Sec. 5. Public Information. The respective agency head shall ensure that areas and trails where off-road vehicle use is permitted are well marked and shall provide for the publication and distribution of information, including maps, describing such areas and trails and explaining the conditions on vehicle use. He shall seek cooperation of relevant State agencies in the dissemination of this information.

Sec. 6. Enforcement. The respective agency head shall, where authorized by law, prescribe appropriate penalties for violation of regulations adopted pursuant to this order, and shall establish procedures for the enforcement of those regulations. To the extent permitted by law, he may enter into agreements with State or local governmental agencies for cooperative enforcement of laws and regulations relating to off-road vehicle use.

Sec. 7. Consultation. Before issuing the regulations or administrative instructions required by this order or designating areas or trails as required by this order and those regulations and administrative instructions, the Secretary of the Interior shall, as appropriate, consult with the Secretary of Energy and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

[Sec. 7 amended by Executive Order 12608 of Sept. 9, 1987, 52 FR 34617, 3 CFR, 1987 Comp., p. 245]

Sec. 8. Monitoring of Effects and Review. (a) The respective agency head shall monitor the effects of the use of off-road vehicles on lands under their jurisdictions. On the basis of the information gathered, they shall from time to time amend or rescind designations of areas or other actions taken pursuant to this order as necessary to further the policy of this order.
(b) The Council on Environmental Quality shall maintain a continuing review of the implementation of this order.

Sec. 9. Special Protection of the Public Lands. (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 3 of this Order, the respective agency head shall, whenever he determines that the use of off-road vehicles will cause or is causing considerable adverse effects on the soil, vegetation, wildlife, wildlife habitat or cultural or historic resources of particular areas or trails of the public lands, immediately close such areas or trails to the type of off-road vehicle causing such effects, until such time as he determines that such adverse effects have been eliminated and that measures have been implemented to prevent future recurrence.
(b) Each respective agency head is authorized to adopt the policy that portions of the public lands within his jurisdiction shall be closed to use by off-road vehicles except those areas or trails which are suitable and specifically designated as open to such use pursuant to Section 3 of this Order.

[Sec. 9 added by Executive Order 11989 of May 24, 1977, 42 FR 26959, 3 CFR, 1977 Comp., p. 120]

 

[Rawah652]

Since this seems to keep popping up, I went to the Recreation.gov site to look at the posted off-road rules to obtain a permit for these trails. The verbiage on the site hasn't really changed, here it is below for those of you who've never obtained a backcountry wilderness permit:

Now, you go on certain vehicle forums, or ask 10 off-road "enthusiasts" the exact definition of 4-wheel drive you're gonna get 10 different answers- some depending on how expensive/modified their own rigs are. But the real question is, does the Bronco Sport meet this definition? I'd say yes. Here's the vehicle information for my vehicle from the Ford maintenance manual (i.e. NOT sales material):

The key here being: "4 wheel low/high full time drive." So this vehicle is capable of putting drive power to all four wheels in both high and low gears the entire time it's moving. This is different to an All-Wheel Drive vehicle which by definition can only do that part of the time. (Though I'd be curious to see the specs from someone with a non-Badlands/First Edition trim)

Technology has come a long way from 10, 20, 30+ years ago. It used to be pretty easy to figure out the difference between 2WD and 4WD, and you had to lock-in the front hubs to go into 4WD. It's just not that way anymore, it is a little bit more murky what capabilities a vehicle actually has. Advertising and marketing don't help, but for the intents of the NPS, the Bronco Sport meets their definition of a 4-wheel drive, low range, high clearance vehicle (8" being the required mark there).

Again, I am really glad I had the lift and beefier tires on my sport when I did an off-road trail in this park. The lift was helpful in several areas, though I would have appreciated a little more approach clearance. I didn't have any issues on the trail nor with the Rangers (i.e. no one had to assist me on any obstacle, I didn't get pulled out from anywhere, and I did all my own spotting and driving off the front/rear camera setup).

If you have experience off-roading and you've marginally upgraded the stock vehicle, go have fun with it! If you haven't done that, then go to easier forest service roads, etc, get that experience, learn the vehicle, and build up to be able to do the trip you want! Just please practice good trail etiquette and try to leave the area with more trash than you brought in with you.

 

[sajohnson]

Just please practice good trail etiquette and try to leave the area with more trash than you brought in with you.

I imagine you meant this the other way around.

Easy mistake to make.

 

[Rawah652]

I imagine you meant this the other way around.

Easy mistake to make.

Guess it depends on how you read it, I meant to leave the area (i.e. go home) with more trash that you personally generated! I normally pack a trash bag and pick up any trash I find and get it to a dumpster at the end of the trip. But I can definitely see how one might read that the opposite way!

 

[sajohnson]

From post #7:

The National Park Service (NPS) defines a high clearance off road vehicle as the following:

"A high clearance 4WD vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15 inch tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8 inches of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including a means to mechanically power both, front and real wheels at the same time." (emphasis added)

~~~

From post #15:

From the article linked to by the OP:

"Despite wilderness-themed marketing tactics, vehicles equipped with AWD have very different capabilities than vehicles equipped with 4WD despite sharing a similar nomenclature."

"Some AWD systems have brake-based limited-slip differentials, but these are still no substitute for locking differentials in traditional 4WD systems."

Ford does not help by claiming the BS and BS BL are "4WD." Likely the above mentioned marketing tactics."

~~~

Needless to say, I don't care what anyone else does. It sounds like the Rangers do have discretion, in the same way cops do. That said, it's a good idea not to count on discretion to avoid a ticket. If a camera is used, then there is no chance for discretion in the first place.

If a Ranger is a 'by-the-book' type, the BS BL clearly doe not meet the NPS definition of "4WD." They do not have low range gearing.

Other requirements -- like, "... also including a means to mechanically power both, front and real wheels at the same time" are a bit fuzzier.

""Some AWD systems have brake-based limited-slip differentials, but these are still no substitute for locking differentials in traditional 4WD systems."

That's true, but, many (most?) 4WD vehicles do not have locking diffs. In which case, the brake-based limited-slip differentials are certainly better than nothing (an open diff).

There at least 3 main factors:

1) Torque management -- can the vehicle move when any one tire has traction?
2) Gearing
3) Clearance -- ground clearance and approach/departure angle (which the NPS ignores).

 

[TCBSport]

This was posted yesterday on YouTube. TFL does a decent job of going thru different drive options and the difficulty of coming up with definitions……even electric off roaders that have one gear with 4 motors. I will ask the moderator to delete the thread I created earlier today not realizing this already existed.

 

[Rawah652]

At the end of the day, the Subaru Crosstrek is advertised as an AWD vehicle. The Bronco Sport is advertised by Ford, and all of the literature about the vehicle from the manufacturer states that it is a 4-wheel drive vehicle. Unless the NPS/BLM/etc want to further modify their own definitions, or exclude certain vehicles by name, it's very difficult justification to issue a ticket to a vehicle that says it is "4-wheel drive Low/High full time drive" for not being a 4WD vehicle. Especially when the First Edition/Badlands versions have a locking rear diff.

Geardos will forever argue what it means to have a "true" off-road vehicle, and essentially attempt to gatekeep anything you haven't spend a ton of money on mods for, or isn't their preferred brand. This is even more true now with all the "influencers" out there. Are those vehicles insanely fun to drive? I sincerely hope so. But it's also not required to enjoy the majority of off-road trails around.

There at least 3 main factors:

1) Torque management -- can the vehicle move when any one tire has traction?
2) Gearing
3) Clearance -- ground clearance and approach/departure angle (which the NPS ignores).

Side note: the "quote" button would have been super helpful in formatting your post. Also some of your points are a bit odd considering your thumbnail is of a Bronco Sport on what appears to be the Hell's Gate obstacle of Hell's Revenge trail, which is on BLM land...

1) To answer your question on the BS (Badlands at least)- yes, it absolutely can move forward when just one wheel has traction. It's quite the experience when you're also off-camber

2) Obviously the BS does not have a transfer case, but it does have low gear ratios in the first and second gear. Not the best rock crawler out there, but it gets the job done. Again, the higher trims allow you to stay in the lower first/second gear.

3) Yeah, IMO the stock BS/BL needs a bit of a lift here. It meets the 8" clearance (8.8 to be exact) but higher is definitely better. Other trims definitely require the lift with factory clearance at 7.8.

 

[Bucko]

Tell that to Marisa Tomei. I'm sure she'll have a thing or two to say about it.

A bit different from posi traction, as she is famous for in My cousin vinny

 

[Mark S.]

Tell that to Marisa Tomei. I'm sure she'll have a thing or two to say about it.

"Chevy didn't make a 327 in 55, the 327 didn't come out 'til 62."

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