Synthetic vs. Conventional Oil

[Meanderthal]

I watched it up to where he started tearing the end cap apart. This reviewer is evaluating oil filter material and design, but he's has not told us about his qualifications. Does he have any engineering and design credentials pertaining to oil filter manufacturing? As far as I can tell, his viewpoint is strictly from a layman's point of view, not a materials engineering point of view. And there's nothing in the video about how the filters do the job they were made for, only a critique of construction material.

Construction materials are designed to function in a given environment, and they often appear to be inappropriate or unsuitable when viewed outside of their intended environment. In this video, the filter material appeared to be dry; it had not been used yet. What happens to that material when it's exposed to hot engine oil? Again, it's made from essentially the same as the filtration media, which clearly holds together despite the enormous pressure of oil being forced through it. Why would you expect the end cap material to fall apart but not the filtration media?

If you look at the shelves in just about any auto supply store you'll see that Fram filters outnumber all other manufacturers combined. I contend that with so many filters in operation there is more than enough real-world use data available from which to draw conclusions about product suitability. It seems to me if people were experiencing problems with these filters the word would be out--where are the lawsuits?

To convince me that Fram filters don't work for their intended purpose I need to see data from a controlled study, not the opinion of someone who appears to be unqualified to evaluate construction material and methods.

So, I guess you need to have a college degree to open up some oil filters and see what is inside? Then when you do that to a range of filters, you can’t compare one brand to another? You also need to be a material scientist to point out which filters come with rust in them?

The whole point of posting that video was to contradict your experience of seeing oil filters being made in a factory that all had the same internals. While I’m sure there are filters out there that are exactly the same except for the printing on the outside, in terms of the major brands there are differences.

I personally would prefer to use things that are better than meeting the minimum spec. That could be a waste of money, but using full synthetic oil and an oil filter that has higher quality internal pieces is part of the reasoning for doing my own service. Even when using more expensive stuff, I pay less than someone paying a mechanic.

The end cap of the Fram filter that was falling apart was not what I believe is a combination of fiber and resin. Nor was it made from the same material as the filter media. Here is what the Mann filter looks like and I would believe is a combination of fiber and resin, it may also be of the same material as the filter media (not that makes any difference).

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[Mark S.]

So, I guess you need to have a college degree to open up some oil filters and see what is inside? Then when you do that to a range of filters, you can’t compare one brand to another? You also need to be a material scientist to point out which filters come with rust in them?

No, you can compare filters, just compare them based on how they do their job, not how they're made. There's nothing in that video discussing filter performance. Construction material shouldn't matter as long as the filter does what it's supposed to do.

I personally would prefer to use things that are better than meeting the minimum spec.

I get that sentiment, but nothing in that video tells us anything about how well or poorly the filters perform. It was only about what they're made of.

The whole point of posting that video was to contradict your experience of seeing oil filters being made in a factory that all had the same internals. While I’m sure there are filters out there that are exactly the same except for the printing on the outside, in terms of the major brands there are differences.

Fair enough. It wasn't my intent to suggest there are no material differences from one filter to the next, only that branding isn't a good way to judge filter performance.

 

[Bucko]

When discussions get to this point of difference, I go the route of what the manufacturer of the vehicle uses. This way, no matter what the item is made from or how it performs, it was good enough for the manufacturer.

I'll stay with Ford oil filters, and Ford oil. There may be better, but I won't loose sleep thinking about if I'm using something that could void a warranty.

And when the warranty expires, I'll switch to chicken oil and a roll of toliet paper as the filter.

 

[Meanderthal]

No, you can compare filters, just compare them based on how they do their job, not how they're made. There's nothing in that video discussing filter performance. Construction material shouldn't matter as long as the filter does what it's supposed to do.

Well, like engine oil, knowing how an oil filter performs is somewhat unknowable. Even if someone is doing in depth "scientific" testing, how can anyone be sure that testing reflects real world conditions on your engine and that the filter they tested is actually a "good" sample from that manufacturer. Oil is maybe a little more straightforward than the filter, as there are quite a few variables in the filter (not that there aren't in oil, just seems to be more in filter construction).

At this point, it would seem that filter media are all probably effective enough in most cases. I think the construction of the other elements could have a bigger effect. Obviously finding rust in filters, to the point that the rust may dislodge, is a very worrisome thing in terms of engine wear. The other thing of concern would be some weakness in the bypass valve that would allow oil to skip the filter media when it shouldn't. The bypass valve is supposed to make that happen in certain conditions. Looking at filter media with sloppy adhesive applied to the end caps is something that makes me wonder what other processes are not being checked. That sloppy adhesive is probably not a real issue in the performance of the filter, unless it is so sloppy that some could be dislodged and circulate through the engine (probably finding a nice little oil passage to clog).

All of this visual inspection of filters just gives an overall impression of the quality level the company is trying to achieve. It can also point out which brands are charging more money for a filter than they should be, by comparing construction to other filters.

Overall I think that choosing an oil filter is really just a best guess scenario. Lots of people believe that Motorcraft oil and filters are the right choice because they are good enough for Ford. To me that just opens the debate of how long does Ford want your engine/car to last? I don't think that Ford would recommend a bad product or put the Motorcraft name on something that didn't meet their minimum specification. I do think that Ford has a motivation for a vehicle to "wear out" sooner rather than later. They want people to feel like they purchased a good vehicle and that they got their monies worth. They also like to have stories of Ford vehicles that ran for a million miles. However, they are not in the business of building vehicles that normally last for a million miles.

Here we are again, with you and I having a long discussion that most other people are annoyed by. Hopefully someone else has found this interesting/informative.

 

[Bucko]

I do find it interesting and informative. I just (at my older age) have read quite a bit of oil threads on various forums that I have been members of, and have decided to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer; at least for two years, as I get free oil and filter changes from the dealer.

After two years and being a good boy, I'll still be around to learn more on the oil and filter debate. It's always a good topic, and I still learn from them.

 

[Meanderthal]

I do find it interesting and informative. I just (at my older age) have read quite a bit of oil threads on various forums that I have been members of, and have decided to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer; at least for two years, as I get free oil and filter changes from the dealer.

After two years and being a good boy, I'll still be around to learn more on the oil and filter debate. It's always a good topic, and I still learn from them.

In a lot of forums the oil discussions devolve into flame throwing battles. Happily, that hasn't happened here.

 

[Mark S.]

In a lot of forums the oil discussions devolve into flame throwing battles. Happily, that hasn't happened here.

That's because we're the more CIVILIZED Bronco crowd. Heh...

 

[sajohnson]

In another thread I mentioned that decades ago, CR tested oil filters. Even if I could dig that up, it would obviously be irrelevant now. FWIW, Fram was the #1 filter back then. IIRC, almost all others were also OK. There were only a couple that were not recommended (IIRC). Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a more recent test by CR. I just checked to be sure.

I believe the story of Fram may be one that has sadly become very common. A company with a well-deserved solid reputation is bought out by a corporation whose main goal is maximizing profit. They ship production to China (or elsewhere), cut quality, and trade on the name as long as they can get away with it. There are many, many examples of that -- Coleman camping gear and New Balance shoes to name just two.

Anyway, the sad truth is, none of us know which oil filters perform the best and last the longest. Perhaps Fram is still OK, or maybe not -- who knows? Even if there have been filter tests (by other than CR or some other solidly independent lab) there's a good chance they are not scientific and/or objective. "Purolator Labs determines that all other filters are *crap*!"

I mention that by way of saying that there are many subjects where people may form strong opinions but have little if any objective proof to back them up. A curious person could spend months reading about (for example): oil; oil filters; air filters; vehicles; aftermarket parts mfrs, etc., etc., to determine which is "best" -- and end up pretty much where they started -- buried in anecdotal evidence.

One phenomenon most people are familiar with is the "echo chamber effect". Somehow an idea gets planted, and then it gets amplified and spread with little/nothing to support it. Sometimes on a forum there might be one or more people who are considered experts/'gurus'. They may knowledgeable, or they may just be convincing blowhards, but either way forum members take whatever they say (positive or negative) to be gospel and spread it far and wide. Even generally reliable people can inadvertently post something that's incorrect or misleading, and then it becomes "common knowledge".

I'm not a gambler, and I don't like wasting money. My policy (with car parts & supplies) is to stick with mfr recommendations/OEM, unless:

1) There is an alternative that's clearly, objectively better (and not much more expensive).
2) The "worst case scenario" is minimal. For example, our (now retired) '97 RAV4 had a vacuum switching valve (VSV) fail. It would not pass emissions without it, but otherwise it ran fine. The Toyota OEM VSV was some crazy amount, say >$150, and the Dorman equivalent was about $40 (IIRC). In that case I went with the Dorman part. It passed emissions. If the VSV had failed it would do no harm.

Anyway, until CR; UL; or some other totally unbiased organization tests oil filters, I'll stick with the Motorcraft one. It's an easy, safe, choice. That said, almost any name brand filter is probably fine -- especially those that are above their bottom tier basic filters.

 

[sajohnson]

When discussions get to this point of difference, I go the route of what the manufacturer of the vehicle uses. This way, no matter what the item is made from or how it performs, it was good enough for the manufacturer.

I'll stay with Ford oil filters, and Ford oil. There may be better, but I won't loose sleep thinking about if I'm using something that could void a warranty.

And when the warranty expires, I'll switch to chicken oil and a roll of toliet paper as the filter.

I'm with you on the Motorcraft filters. There are almost certainly 'better' filters out there, but with no unbiased testing, how can we know which ones they are?

As for oil, that's easier, since oil has ratings/classifications printed on the container. All Ford requires to satisfy the warranty is "5W30 and API-SP". That's it. There are a bunch of oils (dozens?) that meet that requirement. If one wants an oil that also has Ford's 961-A1 approval, there are many that have that as well.

In addition, all of the ones I've looked at have been 100% synthetic. So they are almost certainly even better than the Motorcraft synthetic 'blend' oil. On top of that, they are about the same price as Ford's oil (or just slightly more).

So that's a case where I don't feel the need to go with the mfr's product.

PS: I have a vague memory of rolls of toilet paper actually being used as filter media. I can't recall the details.

 

[SgtT11B]

Do my own oil changes every 5k. Motorctaft synthetic blend and motorctaft filter. I get the oil and filter at Walmart for around $35 total. With 5k intervals I'm not concerned about the oil breaking down or fuel dilution with these direct injected engines.

Exactly, that's why I feel Full Synthetic is over kill. Also the name of the thread is Synthetic vs. Conventional. Should be Synthetic vs. Synthetic blend, as plain conventional oil isn't even recommended.

I am thinking of switching though, as the cost difference really isn't that great. I plan on buying this vehicle out after the lease.

 

[Bucko]

I'm with you on the Motorcraft filters. There are almost certainly 'better' filters out there, but with no unbiased testing, how can we know which ones they are?

As for oil, that's easier, since oil has ratings/classifications printed on the container. All Ford requires to satisfy the warranty is "5W30 and API-SP". That's it. There are a bunch of oils (dozens?) that meet that requirement. If one wants an oil that also has Ford's 961-A1 approval, there are many that have that as well.

In addition, all of the ones I've looked at have been 100% synthetic. So they are almost certainly even better than the Motorcraft synthetic 'blend' oil. On top of that, they are about the same price as Ford's oil (or just slightly more).

So that's a case where I don't feel the need to go with the mfr's product.

PS: I have a vague memory of rolls of toilet paper actually being used as filter media. I can't recall the details.

I wondered if I was the only one that remembered the toliet paper filter cartage. Now I don't feel as old.

Yea, when I begin doing my oil changes again (have 4 free ones), I'll go back to full synthetic as well, as long as the ratings match, and the price is equivalent.

 

[Mark S.]

...plain conventional oil isn't even recommended.

I don't believe there are any straight dino-based oils that meet API SP standards.

 

[Mark S.]

...or they may just be convincing blowhards...

Have you been talking to my wife? She modifies it a bit: "not-all-that-convincing blowhard."

 

[Meanderthal]

I wondered if I was the only one that remembered the toliet paper filter cartage. Now I don't feel as old.

I have a friend that installed one of these toilet paper filters on his diesel just a couple of years ago. I think that system is a bypass system where only a small percentage of the oil flow goes through it. It is meant to catch the smaller particles that the primary filter does not.

Just as reference, my friend was a diesel and industrial machinery mechanic for decades. That is just to say that it sounds like a crazy thing to use a toilet paper roll for an oil filter, but it has been done for a long time. There may be better choices but this type of system still exists and people find that it works.

 

[Mrmike]

So I have 6 quarts of Mobil super synthetic 5W-20. It does not have the SP rating. Should I use it on my OBX or my wife's Ecosport, or get rid of it. I change my oil and filter every 5000 miles or annually.

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