Holding gears without slow speed crawl option

[Mark S.]

I'm going to test this today; I don't think you can manually set the transmission to 1st unless you are using an off-road G.O.A.T. mode. Stand by...

Ok, here's the scoop:

• With the G.O.A.T. mode set to NORMAL and the transmission set to manual, you CAN select 1st gear.
• As long as you are accelerating and/or holding your speed the transmission will allow you to take the engine to redline in 1st.
• If you accelerate in 1st gear up to approximately 10 mph and take your foot off the pedal, the transmission will stay in 1st and you will get some engine braking. You won't get it immediately; the computer seems to hold whatever RPM you were at briefly, then SLOWLY closes the throttle.
• If you accelerate above 15 mph and take your foot off the pedal the transmission will immediately upshift to 3rd. You can manually downshift to 2nd at that speed, but you cannot manually downshift to 1st until 5 mph or less.

So, if you want to use engine braking going downhill you can downshift to second once you're below around 30 mph, but the engine will be screaming up there close to redline RPM. If you slow 5 mph on the hill you can downshift all the way to 1st, but if the slope is steep enough to overcome engine braking and your speed exceeds 15 mph, the transmission will upshift to 3rd.

The bottom line is engine braking is limited. If you live somewhere that has a lot of long downhill grades expect to replace your brakes more often.

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[sajohnson]

Ok, here's the scoop:

• With the G.O.A.T. mode set to NORMAL and the transmission set to manual, you CAN select 1st gear.
• As long as you are accelerating and/or holding your speed the transmission will allow you to take the engine to redline in 1st.
• If you accelerate in 1st gear up to approximately 10 mph and take your foot off the pedal, the transmission will stay in 1st and you will get some engine braking. You won't get it immediately; the computer seems to hold whatever RPM you were at briefly, then SLOWLY closes the throttle.
• If you accelerate above 15 mph and take your foot off the pedal the transmission will immediately upshift to 3rd. You can manually downshift to 2nd at that speed, but you cannot manually downshift to 1st until 5 mph or less.

So, if you want to use engine braking going downhill you can downshift to second once you're below around 30 mph, but the engine will be screaming up there close to redline RPM. If you slow 5 mph on the hill you can downshift all the way to 1st, but if the slope is steep enough to overcome engine braking and your speed exceeds 15 mph, the transmission will upshift to 3rd.

The bottom line is engine braking is limited. If you live somewhere that has a lot of long downhill grades expect to replace your brakes more often.

Thanks Mark, that's helpful.

It sounds like it will not let you exceed the redline. That's good. With our Sprinter cab-chassis it WILL exceed the redline if the driver is not paying attention. It's a diesel so the redline is just 4,400 rpm.

What I do is select a gear (there are only 5) that is appropriate for the speed and then if necessary intermittently apply the brakes to keep the engine below 4,400.

It sounds like the same applies to the BS BL, with the exception that if the driver isn't careful, the transmission will upshift to 3rd. Definitely better than exceeding the redline, but of course that means engine braking will be significantly reduced. That's probably not typically an issue with the BS BL since it has brakes that are more than capable.

The View weighs over 11,000 pounds loaded and it only has 16" wheels. Vented discs all around but obviously they are not much bigger than the brakes on an average passenger vehicle. They really aren't adequate.

 

[SDPark]

Are you talking about on-road or off-road? If you need 1st gear engine braking downhill off-road why not use Trail Control? It pretty much does everything for you: gear selection, engine braking, applying wheel brakes, etc.

If you are on the road you can press the paddles all you like, but the PCM will not allow you to downshift enough to overspeed the engine. I don't believe 1st gear is ever used on pavement. I believe the only time I've seen the transmission in 1st is while climbing a steep incline using an off-road G.O.A.T. mode.

I’ve been offroad on steep descents… used Trail Control thinking it used a combo of gears and braking. After smelling the brakes- pulled over to let them cool, and that is when my husband and I realized that Trail Control doesn’t use gears… it uses the brakes to keep the descent slow. While in Trail Control, the computer applies braking to individual wheels. Since that first time, we have stopped using Trail Control in steep descents. We can put it in 1st gear manually, but it doesn’t stay in gear. Not having a low gear is a huge flaw, in my opinion - for offroad use.

 

[Mark S.]

I’ve been offroad on steep descents… used Trail Control thinking it used a combo of gears and braking. After smelling the brakes- pulled over to let them cool, and that is when my husband and I realized that Trail Control doesn’t use gears… it uses the brakes to keep the descent slow. While in Trail Control, the computer applies braking to individual wheels. Since that first time, we have stopped using Trail Control in steep descents. We can put it in 1st gear manually, but it doesn’t stay in gear. Not having a low gear is a huge flaw, in my opinion - for offroad use.

There's a caution in the manual not to use Trail Control on steep hills. I've no doubt that the system uses more brakes than engine to control descent speed while using trail control. I also agree that not having a granny gear for steep descents is a limitation.

That said, I've tested manual transmission control myself and I've found it will stay in 1st gear as long as you don't exceed 10 mph. You're not likely to get much engine braking when RPM is that low, but there is some. As you note, long, steep descents will absolutely put a great deal of heat into the braking system, so drivers should plan for that when off road.

 

[SDPark]

There's a caution in the manual not to use Trail Control on steep hills. I've no doubt that the system uses more brakes than engine to control descent speed while using trail control. I also agree that not having a granny gear for steep descents is a limitation.

That said, I've tested manual transmission control myself and I've found it will stay in 1st gear as long as you don't exceed 10 mph. You're not likely to get much engine braking when RPM is that low, but there is some. As you note, long, steep descents will absolutely put a great deal of heat into the braking system, so drivers should plan for that when off road.

I will admit to have not noticed that caution regarding Trail Control, so that’s good to know. My husband and I were taking turns driving that day… I ascended and he descended, so I don’t know how fast we were actually going - but it was slow. I'll have to ask him- and know to pay attention to speed (when using manual low gear) the next time. After that experience, we chose to not use Trail Control… and our plan for this coming offroad season is to take brake cool down pauses on any long, steep descent.

 

[Dude]

… After that experience, we chose to not use Trail Control… and our plan for this coming offroad season is to take brake cool down pauses on any long, steep descent.

It would seem like based on Mark Ss post that on future off roading you could continue to use trail control coupled with taking brake cool down pauses on any long, steep descents.

 

[sajohnson]

I’ve been offroad on steep descents… used Trail Control thinking it used a combo of gears and braking. After smelling the brakes- pulled over to let them cool, and that is when my husband and I realized that Trail Control doesn’t use gears… it uses the brakes to keep the descent slow. While in Trail Control, the computer applies braking to individual wheels. Since that first time, we have stopped using Trail Control in steep descents. We can put it in 1st gear manually, but it doesn’t stay in gear. Not having a low gear is a huge flaw, in my opinion - for offroad use.

That's disappointing.

I would have thought Trail Control would use a combination of friction and engine braking.

It should keep the transmission in 1st gear, and maintain rpm below the redline with the brakes.

I haven't been able to find a speed vs rpm chart for the BS BL, so off the top of my head IDK what the rpm is at 10 mph in 1st gear, but unless it's close to the redline it should hold 1st. That said, it is good to have the transmission automatically upshift when getting close to redline, because otherwise the engine could be damaged/destroyed. That's a concern with our Sprinter-based RV -- it will not allow manual downshifts if they would result in the engine exceeding the redline, but once a gear is selected, the transmission will hold that gear -- regardless of rpm. So the driver must pay close attention to the tach and either use the brakes to stay below redline, or upshift.

As you said, while in Trail Control, the computer applies braking to individual wheels. That seems like a benefit, although I suppose the ABS would do the same when braking normally.

 

[Rawah652]

Ok, here's the scoop:

• With the G.O.A.T. mode set to NORMAL and the transmission set to manual, you CAN select 1st gear.
• As long as you are accelerating and/or holding your speed the transmission will allow you to take the engine to redline in 1st.
• If you accelerate in 1st gear up to approximately 10 mph and take your foot off the pedal, the transmission will stay in 1st and you will get some engine braking. You won't get it immediately; the computer seems to hold whatever RPM you were at briefly, then SLOWLY closes the throttle.
• If you accelerate above 15 mph and take your foot off the pedal the transmission will immediately upshift to 3rd. You can manually downshift to 2nd at that speed, but you cannot manually downshift to 1st until 5 mph or less.

In my experience, this isn't entirely true. I have a '22 Badlands, and I was on a steep downhill, forest service-type road (loose rock/gravel, nothing crazy) after coming to a full stop and staying under 4 mph using my brakes, in manual mode, the engine STILL shifted into 3rd gear automatically after going above 1 mph. There was no one around on the hill, so I stopped and started multiple times trying every combo of GOAT mode, manual mode, trail mode, etc I could think of and I could NOT get the thing to stay in 1st or even 2nd gear going down that hill. I could hit the paddle to downshift all day long (I even held it down), but the computer never allowed the transmission to shift down from 3rd.

The odd thing is, I was able to downshift rock crawling in Moab. I don't know what the difference is, or if there is simply more wear on my drive-train and the computer is protecting it for some reason, or an update occurred in the background I'm not aware of. Either way, very frustrating. I'm sitting at about 18K miles right now, tempted to change out some fluids early before taking her off-road again to see if that helps matters.

 

[Mark S.]

In my experience, this isn't entirely true. I have a '22 Badlands, and I was on a steep downhill, forest service-type road (loose rock/gravel, nothing crazy) after coming to a full stop and staying under 4 mph using my brakes, in manual mode, the engine STILL shifted into 3rd gear automatically after going above 1 mph. There was no one around on the hill, so I stopped and started multiple times trying every combo of GOAT mode, manual mode, trail mode, etc I could think of and I could NOT get the thing to stay in 1st or even 2nd gear going down that hill. I could hit the paddle to downshift all day long (I even held it down), but the computer never allowed the transmission to shift down from 3rd.

Interesting data point. I wonder if this might be related to fluid temperature. It's possible the PCM will not allow engine braking if the transmission fluid is above a certain temp. I have no definitive data on this, it's just a guess.

 

[Rawah652]

Interesting data point. I wonder if this might be related to fluid temperature. It's possible the PCM will not allow engine braking if the transmission fluid is above a certain temp. I have no definitive data on this, it's just a guess.

Don't think the transmission fluid would be too hot in that situation. I had gone up the trail about 2 hours before, hiked, then drove back down. When I hit the hill I had "issues" on I had only been driving for a half mile on uneven, but mostly level dirt road.

 

[Escape2Bronco]

Unfortunately it’s the issue with most vehicles with Nannie’s and no transfer case. One of the reasons I went with the 7sp on my full size. It’s not a 205 by any stretch, but it beats an auto goat any day.

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