Rear tires slipping in snow/slush

[BravoAlpha]

New to this board, need advice. I have a 21 BB, live up in the mountains in Northern New Mexico, have driven on snow packed/slush roads for years, last car was a RAV 4, never had problems like this, have driven my BB a few times now and the tires on the back end have slipped, I put slippery mode on and still feel the slip, literally driving 15-20 on highway as everyone is passing me, feels like the car is going to go into a full spin at any moment. I have Goodyear Assurance Weather Ready tires inflated at 33, new and came with the car, any thoughts what could be causing this, or anyone else experience this problem. Drive 60 mins round trip to work, need to be safe on the road, do not feel safe at all. Please help with thoughts or comments.

the vehicle is front wheel drive first. The rears will assist when needed. Are you sure the rear is spinning and not the front? Can you display the intelligent AWD page and see where the power is being distributed?

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[sajohnson]

kinda crazy, right?

i had to buy my BS Heritage trim off the lot after my previous car bit the dust. So, time was of the essence, not a lot of choices, and i got what i got. That said, I really like the Heritage paint scheme on my BS (Alto Blue / White top) love driving it, and I'll live with the bits and bobs it doesn't have (hopefully).

But I really don't understand some of the nickel and diming that goes on between the various trims (aside from that's how they get so many different trim levels) But some of the stuff that is left off of some of these vehicles is just silly. Express window up/down isn't on every model?? it's 2023 for Pete's sake.. i had that on my 2011 VW.

As for transmissions in particular, I'd think that loading the same transmission in all of these things would create an economy of scale that would make it sensible from just a procurement and repair standpoint (OK, only turn on a couple of the GOAT modes for the very highest trim levels) But, i'm sure there is an accountant out there somewhere that proves it otherwise.

Again, i love my BS but am a bit surprised with what isn't included.

Good point about the express up/down operation for the windows, etc.

I'm curious about the transmission though. I thought they were all the same, with the exception of manual shifting being enabled for the BL and Heritage, along with an ATF/oil cooler. See:
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2022/bronco-sport/2022-Bronco-Sport-Tech-Specs.pdf

That does not confirm that the same transmission is used in all models, but the gear ratios are identical.

 

[KidWiff]

Good point about the express up/down operation for the windows, etc.

I'm curious about the transmission though. I thought they were all the same, with the exception of manual shifting being enabled for the BL and Heritage, along with an ATF/oil cooler. See:
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2022/bronco-sport/2022-Bronco-Sport-Tech-Specs.pdf

That does not confirm that the same transmission is used in all models, but the gear ratios are identical.

Hmmm perhaps they are the same, with the upper trim levels having more functionality enabled? I’ll have to look at that a bit further. Seems that some of the upper trim level transmission features are more than just a programming change.

 

[sajohnson]

New to this board, need advice. I have a 21 BB, live up in the mountains in Northern New Mexico, have driven on snow packed/slush roads for years, last car was a RAV 4, never had problems like this, have driven my BB a few times now and the tires on the back end have slipped, I put slippery mode on and still feel the slip, literally driving 15-20 on highway as everyone is passing me, feels like the car is going to go into a full spin at any moment. I have Goodyear Assurance Weather Ready tires inflated at 33, new and came with the car, any thoughts what could be causing this, or anyone else experience this problem. Drive 60 mins round trip to work, need to be safe on the road, do not feel safe at all. Please help with thoughts or comments.

I'm envious! I want to live up in the mountains in Northern New Mexico!

Coincidentally, the Badlands replaced our '97 RAV4. As you know, the RAV4 is (or was) full-time AWD -- as opposed to the BS, which is normally FWD. Even the full-time AWD was less than ideal, because the front and center diffs were open (the rear is the optional/rare Torsen limited slip). Still, having power going to all 4 wheels all the time meant no automatic transitioning between FWD and AWD. Our RAV also has a button to manually lock the center diff, which made it all but unstoppable in the snow -- on Yokohama winter tires.

We haven't had any snow out here yet, so I haven't had a chance to experience what you describe. My guess -- which I think others have mentioned -- is that what's happening is when your BS activates AWD, and the PTU sends power to the rear, the rear tires begin to spin, which makes the rear end more prone to fishtail -- as opposed to when it's in FWD and the rear tires are just following along (like a trailer).

You might try "Sand Mode" which engages 4WD (AWD) lock. That way at least the BB will not be 'hunting' between FWD and AWD and back to FWD.

12/29: Edit to add -- the BS Owner's Manual says:
"Note: Do not use [Sand Mode] on firm, slippery surfaces, such as paved roads covered with snow or ice or driving on packed snow. For slippery, firm surfaces use slippery mode."

One note: With the RAV4 we typically only locked the center diff in really challenging conditions -- like in snow on the 20-25% hill on our road with a hard right at the bottom (limiting approach speed to <5 mph) and a hard left halfway up. The reason we didn't lock center more often is that doing so would make the RAV "crab" -- perhaps what you are describing. That may happen in "Sand Mode". It's basically try it and see, ideally when you have some free time and traffic is light.

 

[sajohnson]

Hmmm perhaps they are the same, with the upper trim levels having more functionality enabled? I’ll have to look at that a bit further. Seems that some of the upper trim level transmission features are more than just a programming change.

I checked here and they list the same transmission for a '23 1.5L Bronco Sport and a '22 Badlands:

https://www.fordgenuineautoparts.com/oem-parts/ford-trans-axle-lx6z7000l

That's not conclusive though. I've seen plenty of mistakes.

 

[AndyMac204]

Turn the traction control off.
Get some grippier/meatier tires.
Switch to snow/slippery mode or sport mode.
Learn the throttle, not too hard, not too soft.

Just what I've learnt after almost 3 years. I HIGHLY recommend going off the highway, and playing with the different modes, Trac lock, etc.

You got this!

 

[sajohnson]

As good as your OE tires are, you may want to consider buying 4 winter tires, mounted on their own wheels.

The tires we have on the RAV4 are Michelin Cross Climate SUV. They are excellent "all-weather" tires and have the "Three Peak Mountain Snowflake Symbol" (3PMSF), but if we had to drive it in snow & ice I'd be using the Yokohama (or similar) winter tires that I mentioned in the other post.

We're retired now, so it's rare that we have to drive in snow, but when we were both working I had winter tires for all of our vehicles.

The only actual additional long-term cost is the wheels, because of course when the winter tires are in use, the 3-season tires are not.

Winter tires make a huge difference. I just started a thread recently with a very good "Engineering Explained" video that compares FWD/RWD/AWD and Summer/All-season/Winter tires. You might find it interesting:

https://www.broncosportforum.com/forum/threads/do-you-really-need-awd-settling-the-winter-tire-debate-good-video.10252/

 

[TSO_NJ]

Interesting "real time"comparison (All Season vs Winter Tires)



Tire Siping

Update Dec 28: let's not forget about the different tire rubber compounds used, which can also be a noticeable factor.

 

[sajohnson]

OK, I watched a few more tire comparison videos. Most were not very helpful, but THIS one is very good. This guy has solid data, and bar graphs that make comparisons easy:



Here's his website:
https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article/2023-Tire-Reviews-Winter-Tire-Test.htm

Bottom line -- the AT tires did OK on the snow-covered test track, one of them was very impressive, but none can touch the Michelin X-Ice (or any other decent name brand winter tire) in snow & ice.

He does a very good job. Out of the 5 or 6 videos I watched, this is the only one worth watching.

I have a set of Michelin X-Ice tires for my WRX, but I've had no need to use them for a few years. They really were good. Often, braking and handling on snow felt almost like dry pavement (depending on the type of snow). If we still had to drive in winter conditions (we're retired now) I'd definitely get a set of them for the BS BL.

<Later> Actually, I see that CR gave the Bridgestone Blizzak WS90 the same overall rating of 73/100 (it and the Michelin are the top 2). From the individual ratings (handling, braking, etc.) though, the Blizzak actually looks slightly better. Anyway, either of those 2 tires is a good choice.

 

[TSO_NJ]

The set of tires that came with our Outer Banks are shown first in this comparison video (hope it doesn't snow in my region).

 

[sajohnson]

The set of tires that came with our Outer Banks are shown first in this comparison video (hope it doesn't snow in my region).

Good video. Confirms what we've read/seen elsewhere -- essentially, 'all-weather tires are an improvement over all-season, but dedicated winter tires offer the best performance and safety in snow and ice'.

What surprised me the most was the serious difference between the all-season tires -- OE and aftermarket. That was incredible.

One thing I found odd was that they had no way to measure the difference in stopping distance, other than shoe lengths (~1'), which he sometimes referred to as paces (~3'). Still, the video gets the point across.

 

[tabitham72]

the vehicle is front wheel drive first. The rears will assist when needed. Are you sure the rear is spinning and not the front? Can you display the intelligent AWD page and see where the power is being distributed?

I don’t have the screen for intelligent AWD. The big bend does not have that., I have checked and asked. The rear tires are the ones that slide, haven’t felt the front ones.

 

[tabitham72]

That’s the issue I have when it’s pouring rain. Because it’s a 4x4 type system the rear wheels won’t engage till after it detects slip. I prefer to use sport mode because to me it acts more like a full time AWD system.

So I will try sport mode and see if there may be a difference Waiting for a storm early next week. Thanks

 

[tabitham72]

the vehicle is front wheel drive first. The rears will assist when needed. Are you sure the rear is spinning and not the front? Can you display the intelligent AWD page and see where the power is being distributed?

I don’t have the AWD screen, co fused why they didn’t make them all the same, of course with extras that come with the upper end models but they should all have the intelligent AWD, I guess I must have missed that when I bought it, would have a made a different choice.

 

[sajohnson]

I don’t have the AWD screen, co fused why they didn’t make them all the same, of course with extras that come with the upper end models but they should all have the intelligent AWD, I guess I must have missed that when I bought it, would have a made a different choice.

I wouldn't feel too bad about that. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to be more of a 'video game' feature. Granted, it would be helpful in your case to see if the rear end getting loose is due to power transfer to the rear -- but regardless of the cause, it's happening.

Even if you had the AWD screen, you'd try Slippery (and maybe Sand) modes regardless of what the screen indicates

BTW -- it's easy to miss features, especially on new cars.

<Grumpy old dude> Back in the 20th century, cars only had a drivetrain; brakes, and suspension -- and we LIKED IT!

Seriously, there was a lot less to focus on. Even so, when I bought my 5MT 2002 WRX, I missed the fact that Subaru used a LAME AWD system on the MT cars. A more honest slogan would have been, "From the wheels that grip, to the wheels that slip!"

That said, I would not have bought the automatic just to get the reasonably competent AWD, because it was just an ordinary 5AT -- no dual clutch with paddle shifting -- probably the same 5AT Subaru used in the Forester. Also, even thought my WRX has essentially open diffs (the VCUs are very weak), I had Michelin X-Ice dedicated winter tires so it did OK, except for the 20-25% slope hill on our road -- if the snow was more than a few inches deep -- then "the path of least resistance" took over and it became ONE (1) wheel drive. D'OH!

Then wifey would rescue me with her (3WD) RAV4 on winter tires. We could stop that thing half-way up the steep hill in a foot of snow and it would start rolling forward again with no tire spin! The WRX with it's pathetic "AWD" was left at the bottom until the road was cleared.

So sad.

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