Another reason to hate electric vehicles?

[thomasm23]

Good observation about ".... those with no convenient access to charging: apartment dwellers and city dwellers without their own parking."

My (completely unresearched) theory is that the growth in EV sales will soften when the group of people who can charge at home has been saturated.

As it is, as much as I like EVs, the fact is that they are most attractive to those who can charge at home. Others must use (sometimes inconvenient) public chargers which are usually *stupid* expensive -- as in $0.50+ per kWh!! At that point, many ICE vehicles are less expensive per mile (for the "fuel" anyway).

If Ford made an electric version of the BS BL we would have bought that. We can charge at home (and I can do the wiring). We live in a semi-rural area, but our longest routine trip is about 30 miles, and typically much less. The longest is about 180 miles, and most EVs can handle that.

If we lived in an apartment, it's very unlikely we'd get an EV. Lack of home (or at least convenient, inexpensive) home charging is going to be a big hurdle for EV mfrs.

Speaking of hybrids, there is an "Engineering Explained" video comparing the carbon footprint of ICE vehicles to comparably sized EVs. At one point he says that there are some cases where a hybrid makes the most sense (smallest footprint).

Most renters with a BEV will charge at work.

Sponsored

 

[sajohnson]

Most renters with a BEV will charge at work.

I almost added "or charge at work" but that seems to be a very small percentage.

It should increase though, and that will help.

 

[Dude]

update on the original post: The freight ship carrying 3,784 new vehicles (of those 498 are electric) .. most of the ship has been inspected by salvage experts and “there are no indications that the fire is still burning.”

This is the ship that burned for a week on the North Sea that will be towed Thursday (today) to the northern port of Eemshavena a Dutch port for salvage.

full article:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/car-carrying-ship-burned-week-north-sea-towed-101975433

 

[Bucko]

All past predictions of oil depletion were based on what we knew, and it's always something we didn't know that nullified them. Given the number and accuracy of past predictions (0% right so far) I'm skeptical of any claims of certainty regarding oil depletion. Could we eventually use it all? Probably. Will it happen any time soon? I don't believe anyone can know the answer to that with any certainty. Humans have proven quite resourceful (heh) at finding new petroleum sources.

Oil companies are very powerful; they line the pockets of politicians as well.

Remember hydrogen vehicles? BMW designed one, and it had 0 total emissions, only water vapor.

So where are they? It was claimed to be too expensive to set up hydrogen based pumps to re-fill them.

But batteries for EV's are alright.

 

[Meanderthal]

Good observation about ".... those with no convenient access to charging: apartment dwellers and city dwellers without their own parking."

My (completely unresearched) theory is that the growth in EV sales will soften when the group of people who can charge at home has been saturated.

As it is, as much as I like EVs, the fact is that they are most attractive to those who can charge at home. Others must use (sometimes inconvenient) public chargers which are usually *stupid* expensive -- as in $0.50+ per kWh!! At that point, many ICE vehicles are less expensive per mile (for the "fuel" anyway).

Having lived in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada for a short stint, I can easily see readily available charging for apartment (or similar) dwellers. When I lived there, and I'm sure it's still the case, most places have electricity access near the parking spots. The reason is for a block heater but there's no reason this could not be an EV charger instead. Yes, there are logistical challenges to making it happen but it's not unforeseeable and I'm sure as the adoption rate of EV's continues to climb the availability of charging points will also climb (probably following similar paths).

 

[Dude]

Depends a lot on where you live. Out here permanent pop up charging stations are appearing everywhere, in grocery store parking lots, at libraries, at shopping centers, at apartment buildings. I happened to see the installation of one. Everything came prepackaged on a flat bed semi, all the needed trades were there and in a few hours the installation was complete (I think is 16 charge stations). I’m sure lots of prep work was involved too.

 

[Bucko]

Depends a lot on where you live. Out here permanent pop up charging stations are appearing everywhere, in grocery store parking lots, at libraries, at shopping centers, at apartment buildings. I happened to see the installation of one. Everything came prepackaged on a flat bed semi, all the needed trades were there and in a few hours the installation was complete (I think is 16 charge stations). I’m sure lots of prep work was involved too.

So who is paying for the electricity used to charge an EV vehicle plugged into these "free" charge locations? If its tax dollars from the cities/states/federal government, then all of us are?

 

[Dude]

So who is paying for the electricity used to charge an EV vehicle plugged into these "free" charge locations? If its tax dollars from the cities/states/federal government, then all of us are?

I’ll have to leave that question to people that own an EV or know the answer.

I won’t buy an EV until it meets my needs:
$25k price or less (w/o the tax incentive)
500+ mile range
2” trailer hitch for my Ebike/etc
Can go on light-duty off road trails for access to hiking, biking, fishing, etc.

 

[sajohnson]

So who is paying for the electricity used to charge an EV vehicle plugged into these "free" charge locations? If its tax dollars from the cities/states/federal government, then all of us are?

You! You're paying. Check your tax bill for the "EV surcharge"!

No seriously, the EV owner pays. From my post above:

"As it is, as much as I like EVs, the fact is that they are most attractive to those who can charge at home. Others must use (sometimes inconvenient) public chargers which are usually *stupid* expensive -- as in $0.50+ per kWh!! At that point, many ICE vehicles are less expensive per mile (for the "fuel" anyway)."

Regardless of where an EV is charged, the owner pays -- sometimes an exorbitant amount.

An exception is chargers that are offered for free by businesses that are trying to attract customers.

There may be some EV chargers owned by local/state gubmints that reduced rate or free. In those cases the taxpayers are footing the bill.

 

[Dude]

As if anyone needs yet another reason to hate EVs, here’s a case where reading the Owners Manual could save your life and the lives of others.

The driver admitted he had not read the section in his owners manual about how to get out of the car when its 12V battery died (was not related to the EV battery pack that powers the car).

In Arizona, 12V batteries die often.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2023/08/02/man-trapped-inside-tesla-manual-door-operation/70512739007/

 

[sajohnson]

Depends a lot on where you live. Out here permanent pop up charging stations are appearing everywhere, in grocery store parking lots, at libraries, at shopping centers, at apartment buildings. I happened to see the installation of one. Everything came prepackaged on a flat bed semi, all the needed trades were there and in a few hours the installation was complete (I think is 16 charge stations). I’m sure lots of prep work was involved too.

That's good to hear.

Do you happen to know what the cost per kWh is? Sometimes they are free, or reasonable, but most public chargers are crazy expensive.

To be fair, it obviously costs a LOT to install EV chargers -- especially the high power/fast ones. That money must be recovered -- but at some point owning an EV doesn't make financial sense.

1 gallon of gas = 125,000 BTU. 1 kWh = 3,412 BTU. 125,000 / 3,412 = ~37kWh. 37kWh = 1 gallon of gas.

So if electricity costs (say) 13 cents/kWh -- $0.13 x 37 = ~$4.80 for the BTU equivalent of 1 gallon.

Kinda pricey, but EVs use those BTUs more efficiently than ICE vehicles (some EVs get up to 130 mpg-e), so the EV owner comes out ahead.

But if a charging station charges ~4x as much per kWh -- the equivalent of $19+ per gallon! -- that efficiency advantage is eliminated.

I really like EVs. If/when we buy one, we can charge here at home -- but I think potential EV buyers, who have been told EVs are much less expensive to operate than ICE vehicles, deserve to know what they are in for (if they cannot charge at home and/or at work).

It would suck to spend (say) $60K on a new EV, only to find that charging it costs more than putting gas in an ICE car.

 

[Dude]

That's good to hear.

Do you happen to know what the cost per kWh is? Sometimes they are free, or reasonable, but most public chargers are crazy expensive.

I like EVs too… let me know if you ever see one like this:
$25k price or less (w/o the tax incentive)
500+ mile range
2” trailer hitch for my Ebike/etc
Can go on light-duty off road trails for access to hiking, biking, fishing, etc.

The charging station I saw getting installed is Tesla so I just assumed the pricing is familiar to Tesla owners and other vehicles that can now use Tesla stations. But I don’t know the cost to charge. I was just amazed how prepared the install team was and how quickly and professionally they completed their tasks. I was having iced coffee in an air conditioned coffee shop ?

 

[sajohnson]

I like EVs too… let me know if you ever see one like this:
$25k price or less (w/o the tax incentive)
500+ mile range
2” trailer hitch for my Ebike/etc
Can go on light-duty off road trails for access to hiking, biking, fishing, etc.

The charging station I saw getting installed is Tesla so I just assumed the pricing is familiar to Tesla owners and other vehicles that can now use Tesla stations. But I don’t know the cost to charge. I was just amazed how prepared the install team was and how quickly and professionally they completed their tasks. I was having iced coffee in an air conditioned coffee shop ?

I saw your requirements. Barring any huge breakthroughs, I'm afraid you may be waiting awhile.
The longest range I'm aware of is the Lucid Air at ~430 miles (claimed). Of course the cost is a tad over your limit at about $150,000, IIRC. It is crazy fast though!

It sounds like you were supervising the charging station installation -- 'having iced coffee in an air conditioned coffee shop'.

Figured you'd have no reason to know the cost per kWh -- I asked in the off-chance that you might have looked out of curiosity. The articles and videos I've seen indicate that about 40 to 60 cents per kWh is common -- but I imagine it varies widely.

 

[sajohnson]

As if anyone needs yet another reason to hate EVs, here’s a case where reading the Owners Manual could save your life and the lives of others.

The driver admitted he had not read the section in his owners manual about how to get out of the car when its 12V battery died (was not related to the EV battery pack that powers the car).

In Arizona, 12V batteries die often.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2023/08/02/man-trapped-inside-tesla-manual-door-operation/70512739007/

Gotta read that manual!

Seriously though, even if the owner is responsible and reads the manual from cover to cover (the manual for the Badlands is almost 500 pages!) the car may operated by someone else at some point. It seems reasonable to expect that all basic functions should be intuitive, or obvious to any experienced driver.

 

[Dude]

Gotta read that manual!

Seriously though, even if the owner is responsible and reads the manual from cover to cover (the manual for the Badlands is almost 500 pages!) the car may operated by someone else at some point. It seems reasonable to expect that all basic functions should be intuitive, or obvious to any experienced driver.

Yep the Teslas door exit mechanism needs to be well labeled!!