This surprised me today.

[Mark S.]

Believe me, the small magnets are just the start of the quality materials issues.

Magnet size is generally not correlated to quality. The most powerful magnets used for speaker construction (neodymium) are also generally the lightest. Aside from material, magnet size is also influenced by power available, desired durability, and voice coil construction. The "right" magnet size takes all these into consideration.

It's true that all other things being equal, a larger magnet generally means higher volume and finer control of the voice coil. But we are comparing two different speaker designs with different components. A properly speaker with a smaller magnet that's meant to function in a low-power system can have as good or better sound quality than one with a much larger magnet.

All of this is not to suggest the OE speakers Ford chose are "good." I'm simply noting that just because the magnet is small doesn't mean they are automatically "bad."

Volume is definitely better now but so is quality when you turn it up over approximately 12.

In looking at your post about replacing your speakers it's clear you did much more than simply change the speakers. A more fair comparison between the OE and Powerbase speakers would not include all the things you did that significantly changed the installation environment.

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[Meanderthal]

Magnet size is generally not correlated to quality. The most powerful magnets used for speaker construction (neodymium) are also generally the lightest. Aside from material, magnet size is also influenced by power available, desired durability, and voice coil construction. The "right" magnet size takes all these into consideration.

It's true that all other things being equal, a larger magnet generally means higher volume and finer control of the voice coil. But we are comparing two different speaker designs with different components. A properly speaker with a smaller magnet that's meant to function in a low-power system can have as good or better sound quality than one with a much larger magnet.

All of this is not to suggest the OE speakers Ford chose are "good." I'm simply noting that just because the magnet is small doesn't mean they are automatically "bad."



In looking at your post about replacing your speakers it's clear you did much more than simply change the speakers. A more fair comparison between the OE and Powerbase speakers would not include all the things you did that significantly changed the installation environment.

Yes, magnets differ and there are quality differences within that category. Bigger is not always better but clearly in this case, Ford did not deliver on quality.

I did one other thing besides replacing the speakers, adding the mastic to each door panel. I’m sure that adding that mastic would have improved the sound of the stock speakers. I did not start that project with the goal of recording incremental improvements. The goal was to do what I felt was necessary and hope that I was right. In the end, I’m 100% confident that in a side by side comparison anyone with reasonable hearing could tell it’s significantly better.

I did change the subwoofer much later on and that was another incremental improvement but that project requires some more tools and some creativity.

I think your penchant for being pendantic here is covering up the overall issue.

 

[Mark S.]

I think your penchant for being pendantic here is covering up the overall issue.

Perhaps I misunderstood what the overall issue is: I believe you are claiming the B&O system is not worth the money based on your claim that the OE speakers are essentially junk. The only evidence you offered to support that claim is the size of the magnets and what you described as a cone and surround with "no structural integrity." I don't know what you mean by "no structural integrity," so I responded only to your claims regarding the magnet.

So, to recap: you claim the OE speakers are poor quality based on your observation of the magnet and overall construction. I dispute that by pointing out that different materials and construction processes are appropriate for different applications, and that the lightweight magnet and materials used for the OE speaker are almost certainly appropriate for a low-power application like the OE amplifier used in the B&O system. Is that pedantry?

As to your overall issue, whether or not the B&O system qualifies as a "premium sound system" is--as you've noted--entirely subjective. There are many here on the board that are entirely satisfied with theirs. The B&O system in the wife's 2020 Escape sounds pretty good to me, and it certainly sounds better than the plain-Jane stock system in my Badlands. So in that regard it seems "premium" to me.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Meanderthal]

Perhaps I misunderstood what the overall issue is: I believe you are claiming the B&O system is not worth the money based on your claim that the OE speakers are essentially junk. The only evidence you offered to support that claim is the size of the magnets and what you described as a cone and surround with "no structural integrity." I don't know what you mean by "no structural integrity," so I responded only to your claims regarding the magnet.

So, to recap: you claim the OE speakers are poor quality based on your observation of the magnet and overall construction. I dispute that by pointing out that different materials and construction processes are appropriate for different applications, and that the lightweight magnet and materials used for the OE speaker are almost certainly appropriate for a low-power application like the OE amplifier used in the B&O system. Is that pedantry?

As to your overall issue, whether or not the B&O system qualifies as a "premium sound system" is--as you've noted--entirely subjective. There are many here on the board that are entirely satisfied with theirs. The B&O system in the wife's 2020 Escape sounds pretty good to me, and it certainly sounds better than the plain-Jane stock system in my Badlands. So in that regard it seems "premium" to me.

YMMV, of course.

There is no way to prove on a forum that a speaker or sound system is of any quality, good or bad. Pictures of the speakers are about the best any normal human can do.

As for the power of the amplifier being matched to the OE speakers, I would question that based on my experience. I think that most people would agree that listening to the stereo at a volume setting of 1/3 to 2/3 of the total range is within reason. I know that I could hear distortion from those speakers and rattling within the door panels (most likely the clips that hold wiring to the plastic inner door panel) at just above the 1/3 range point (12).

The pendantic comment is about your launching into a description of different magnet types. In this particular case, the magnet size in the OE speaker is most likely because the structure (cone and surround) of the speaker could not handle a larger magnet. So you are probably correct in saying the magnet is sized to the other components. What I, and others, are saying is that the standards used to make those decisions were not based on a quality sound experience, but instead appear to be based on the least cost. If I still had the stock speakers, I would gladly send one to you for your personal verification of the overall quality. I personally don't believe that those speakers are what anyone with any experience with speakers would believe is appropriate for the B&O system or even the standard system. The speakers I removed, held in my hands, and made an objective evaluation on; were as flimsy and cheaply made as speakers in cars I have seen from the 1960's.

When I say the speaker cone has no structural integrity, I mean that if you pushed on it with your finger, you could easily push through it. It is made of a non-woven fabric that has nothing else added to it. I literally mean fabric, such that it would flap in the breeze if it were not attached to the voice coil and the surround.

If all someone listens to in their BS is talk radio, maybe they would be good enough. Or maybe if they drive on glass smooth roads at speeds of 40 mph or less.

I understand that you may be happy with the stereo in your BS. I have no issue with that, please enjoy that stereo to your heart's content. I now have a stereo in my BS that I can enjoy and I do. The OE speakers are what was standing in the way of that enjoyment for me. Looking at those speakers side-by-side with the OE speakers showed me that Ford did not actually invest more than a dollar per speaker to upgrade the B&O front door speakers, and with evidence shown elsewhere on this forum, they did not invest an extra penny in the rear door speakers. Yes, I also applied mastic to my door panels which addressed the rattles and most likely also gave more bass to the door speakers.

This is all my personal experience and my personal evaluation. I do not have equipment that can measure sound quality, and pretty much nobody does. I don't remember exactly what the cost of the B&O system was. I think it was part of a package, so determining that is nearly impossible. I do know that either Ford paid B&O a lot of money per vehicle for their "tuning" of the system or they pocketed a lot of money for not really upgrading much of anything in regards to equipment. We all know that generally you will pay a lot more for an OE option than you would for aftermarket. I don't really feel like that is the case for the Cargo Shelf or the Tow Hitch though. This stereo option is at best questionable.

 

[sajohnson]

I spent decades interested in and studying audio equipment, signal processing, and acoustics. One thing I learned is that discussions/debates about even seemingly insignificant issues can rival the never-ending oil and filter threads on car forums.

There can be a lot of 'placebo effect.' For example, in the early days of CD's people swore that cryogenically freezing discs and/or marking the outer edge of the label side with a green marker (IIRC it had to be a specific marker!) would noticeably improve the sound.

People spent/spend? $ thousands on discrete D>A converters because they were convinced they sounded better than the converters that are built into all CD/DVD players and receivers.

Suckers -- I mean audiophiles -- spent/spend? $ hundreds on 'special' speaker wire and patch cords. With analog signals there may theoretically be a difference between patch cords (in some cases) due to differences in shielding, etc., but with digital, the signal is either there or it's not.

All of the above could be debunked with lab tests and A/B/X testing, but that did not matter to true believers. They want to believe, so they are easy to convince.

In any case, as others have said, audio quality is subjective. It's tricky because it can seem as objective as eyesight. I've read about tests in which 'golden eared' listeners are put in a room with several pairs of speakers and they are told they are listening to the 'X' pair when really they are listening to the much less expensive 'Y' pair. They gush about "clarity; air; detail; imaging" etc., and then find out they've been listening to the 'pedestrian' pair of speakers all along. D'OH!

 

[Nickadeamus]

I can say I don't care about the sound system. I only play music when I am driving and in 4 years I have only put 17,400 miles on my last ford. Traded that in for this BS and I think what sound system it has is ok for me.

When someone starts talking about the magnets in the speaker, I think they are a little obsessive. I care more about almost everything else that has to do about my vehicles.

This might be because I am older, I grew up in the outdoors in the 70's and 80's. Did not have a need for music when hiking, hunting and fishing with family and friends.

Not saying I didn't have music. At home we had radio, 8 track, record player, then came cassettes, CD and so on. But I spent most of my time outside doing things and not inside.

 

[Dude]

When someone starts talking about the magnets in the speaker, I think they are a little abscessed

Never heard someone called a pocket of pus for talking audio

I’m thinking you may have meant obsessive

??

 

[Bucko]

Perhaps I misunderstood what the overall issue is: I believe you are claiming the B&O system is not worth the money based on your claim that the OE speakers are essentially junk. The only evidence you offered to support that claim is the size of the magnets and what you described as a cone and surround with "no structural integrity." I don't know what you mean by "no structural integrity," so I responded only to your claims regarding the magnet.

So, to recap: you claim the OE speakers are poor quality based on your observation of the magnet and overall construction. I dispute that by pointing out that different materials and construction processes are appropriate for different applications, and that the lightweight magnet and materials used for the OE speaker are almost certainly appropriate for a low-power application like the OE amplifier used in the B&O system. Is that pedantry?

As to your overall issue, whether or not the B&O system qualifies as a "premium sound system" is--as you've noted--entirely subjective. There are many here on the board that are entirely satisfied with theirs. The B&O system in the wife's 2020 Escape sounds pretty good to me, and it certainly sounds better than the plain-Jane stock system in my Badlands. So in that regard it seems "premium" to me.

YMMV, of course.

I'm certainly satisfied with the B&O system in our Outer Banks edition. Much better than the simple stereo in our 2007 F-150.

 

[Mark S.]

What I, and others, are saying is that the standards used to make those decisions were not based on a quality sound experience, but instead appear to be based on the least cost.

Fair enough. This shouldn't be surprising, however, because EVERYTHING in modern vehicle manufacturing is based on cost. Even "luxury" car manufacturers select components based on the cost. It's possible components in luxury brands are higher quality than those used in your typical everyday people mover, but rest assured cost is a major factor in the selection process.

 

[Nickadeamus]

Never heard someone called a pocket of pus for talking audio

I’m thinking you may have meant obsessive

??

LOL, I did.

 

[sajohnson]

1) There is no way to prove on a forum that a speaker or sound system is of any quality, good or bad. Pictures of the speakers are about the best any normal human can do.

As for the power of the amplifier being matched to the OE speakers, I would question that based on my experience. I think that most people would agree that listening to the stereo at a volume setting of 1/3 to 2/3 of the total range is within reason. I know that I could hear distortion from those speakers and rattling within the door panels (most likely the clips that hold wiring to the plastic inner door panel) at just above the 1/3 range point (12).

The pendantic comment is about your launching into a description of different magnet types. In this particular case, the magnet size in the OE speaker is most likely because the structure (cone and surround) of the speaker could not handle a larger magnet. So you are probably correct in saying the magnet is sized to the other components. 2) What I, and others, are saying is that the standards used to make those decisions were not based on a quality sound experience, but instead appear to be based on the least cost. If I still had the stock speakers, I would gladly send one to you for your personal verification of the overall quality. I personally don't believe that those speakers are what anyone with any experience with speakers would believe is appropriate for the B&O system or even the standard system. The speakers I removed, held in my hands, and made an objective evaluation on; were as flimsy and cheaply made as speakers in cars I have seen from the 1960's.

3) When I say the speaker cone has no structural integrity, I mean that if you pushed on it with your finger, you could easily push through it. It is made of a non-woven fabric that has nothing else added to it. I literally mean fabric, such that it would flap in the breeze if it were not attached to the voice coil and the surround.

If all someone listens to in their BS is talk radio, maybe they would be good enough. Or maybe if they drive on glass smooth roads at speeds of 40 mph or less.

I understand that you may be happy with the stereo in your BS. I have no issue with that, please enjoy that stereo to your heart's content. I now have a stereo in my BS that I can enjoy and I do. The OE speakers are what was standing in the way of that enjoyment for me. 4) Looking at those speakers side-by-side with the OE speakers showed me that Ford did not actually invest more than a dollar per speaker to upgrade the B&O front door speakers, and with evidence shown elsewhere on this forum, they did not invest an extra penny in the rear door speakers. Yes, I also applied mastic to my door panels which addressed the rattles and most likely also gave more bass to the door speakers.

This is all my personal experience and my personal evaluation. I do not have equipment that can measure sound quality, and pretty much nobody does. I don't remember exactly what the cost of the B&O system was. I think it was part of a package, so determining that is nearly impossible. I do know that either Ford paid B&O a lot of money per vehicle for their "tuning" of the system or they pocketed a lot of money for not really upgrading much of anything in regards to equipment. We all know that generally you will pay a lot more for an OE option than you would for aftermarket. I don't really feel like that is the case for the Cargo Shelf or the Tow Hitch though. This stereo option is at best questionable.

1) Absolutely correct, if you are referring to sound quality, as opposed to physical features that can be measured. That said, there is of course a range of sound quality from 'terrible' to 'sublime'. When comparing systems at opposite ends of the spectrum, it's easy to determine that one is better than the other, but often the differences are more subtle.

2) Of course cost is always a factor, but I understood you to mean that there is little value added with the "B&O" system. As you said, since the B&O system is part of a package, there's probably no way to determine exactly what the cost is, but one could come up with a reasonable estimate. Whatever the cost, it seems clear that it is excessive for what owners receive.

3) That sounds very bad. In theory, the ideal speaker cone would be infinitely rigid and light. That's why materials like aramid fiber (Kevlar) and polypropylene are used. 'Flapping in the breeze is not a desired trait.

4) That seems to be a primary point -- that Ford is drastically overcharging for the the "B&O" system. Hypothetically, let's say the B&O system accounts for $400 of the package cost. If Ford's cost was (say) $300, or even $250, that might be justified. But if, as you say, the only additional cost is ~$1 per front speaker (the rear door speakers are the same for stock and B&O systems) that is clearly a huge rip-off.

Mfrs should provide a detailed list of what is included in an audio system upgrade so buyers know exactly what they are getting for their money. Is it just a couple slightly upgraded speakers? A full-blown high-end system with 12+ speakers, a couple subwoofers, dedicated amps, 31 band EQ, signal processing, etc.? Something in between?

Counter-points might be:

* Buyer beware
* You knew I (Ford) was a snake when you picked me up

Both are weak.

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