Synthetic vs. Conventional Oil

[davidb1841]

What synthetic oil do you use if I might ask?

In my Power Stroke I use Rotella T6 5w40.....In my Bronco I am using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W20 Full Synthetic made from Natural Gas. I add Archoil Friction Modifier oil treatment to both! Every Oil change, which I normally do every 5000 miles on both vehicles.

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[Mark S.]

Over the years, I've met and talked w/plenty a mechanic, both motorcycle and auto, when it comes to their experiences w/Fram oil filters, and their disintegrating in engines, which has indeed happened.

My brother is a machinist. For a time he maintained tooling for a company that produced oil filters (among other products). He took me to his "office" one day to show me the equipment he worked with--it was fascinating stuff for a gear head!

Anyway, to the point. As we were walking around, the machines were whirring and clanking away, stamping out and assembling the parts to make oil filters. I saw bare metal, assembled filters making their way down the production line in one section, then the fully painted, completed filters headed toward the packaging area in another. The thing that caught my eye was these filters were painted a bunch of different colors. As I got closer I noticed the logos: Quaker State, Pennzoil, Mobile, Valvoline, etc., etc. And yes, Fram too. They were all the same filter with different paint.

The "Fram is garbage" mantra has been going around the internet for quite some time now, almost all of it based on anecdotal data from "mechanics" who swear this or that engine was destroyed by a really, really, bad, horrible, no-good, Fram oil filter. Setting aside the difficulty of actually proving such a claim, anecdote is not a good way to judge quality. I'm not aware of any actual test data showing that Fram filters do not meet manufacturer specifications. You can certainly make one filter perform better than another, but like anything else there is a point of diminishing returns. For example, engineers could easily design a car that would 100% guarantee occupant safety in the event of any kind of crash one might experience on U.S. roads, but no one could afford it, it would probably be the least exciting vehicle you've ever driven, and it would be so uncomfortable you could only drive it for short periods.

The question you should ask is the same one you should ask about any product you use to maintain your car: Does it meet manufacturer specifications? I submit that given the number in use around the world, if Fram were selling filters that failed to meet manufacturer standards to the degree they were trashing engines, then there would be a lot more trashed engines out there.

Here's an interesting article that discusses the Fram-is-bad meme.

 

[Meanderthal]

My brother is a machinist. For a time he maintained tooling for a company that produced oil filters (among other products). He took me to his "office" one day to show me the equipment he worked with--it was fascinating stuff for a gear head!

Anyway, to the point. As we were walking around, the machines were whirring and clanking away, stamping out and assembling the parts to make oil filters. I saw bare metal, assembled filters making their way down the production line in one section, then the fully painted, completed filters headed toward the packaging area in another. The thing that caught my eye was these filters were painted a bunch of different colors. As I got closer I noticed the logos: Quaker State, Pennzoil, Mobile, Valvoline, etc., etc. And yes, Fram too. They were all the same filter with different paint.

The "Fram is garbage" mantra has been going around the internet for quite some time now, almost all of it based on anecdotal data from "mechanics" who swear this or that engine was destroyed by a really, really, bad, horrible, no-good, Fram oil filter. Setting aside the difficulty of actually proving such a claim, anecdote is not a good way to judge quality. I'm not aware of any actual test data showing that Fram filters do not meet manufacturer specifications. You can certainly make one filter perform better than another, but like anything else there is a point of diminishing returns. For example, engineers could easily design a car that would 100% guarantee occupant safety in the event of any kind of crash one might experience on U.S. roads, but no one could afford it, it would probably be the least exciting vehicle you've ever driven, and it would be so uncomfortable you could only drive it for short periods.

The question you should ask is the same one you should ask about any product you use to maintain your car: Does it meet manufacturer specifications? I submit that given the number in use around the world, if Fram were selling filters that failed to meet manufacturer standards to the degree they were trashing engines, then there would be a lot more trashed engines out there.

Here's an interesting article that discusses the Fram-is-bad meme.

Just thought I would throw in a video that dissects a group of oil filters to compare what is inside.

When it comes to "meets manufacturers standards", I would agree that this is a minimum standard. It's sort of like getting work done on your house that meets code. Yes, it meets the minimum standard but is the minimum that should be done.

 

[Mark S.]

Just thought I would throw in a video...

I stopped when I got to the part in the video about how Fram's lowest quality filter is made of "cardboard." Take a peek at the article I posted above to understand why that is simply not germane to evaluating oil filters.

The oil system specifications—oil capacity, filtration, change interval, etc.—are designed to ensure the oil provides the required lubricity/cooling/cleaning of internal engine parts while holding whatever particles and contaminants that make it past the filter in suspension until you drain it. What do you gain by using a filter that filters better than necessary? I'm not talking about "peace of mind" gains or assumptions, I'm talking about real-world, measurable performance gains pertaining to driveability, durability, and longevity. To date, I've never seen any data-driven study showing that use of Fram oil filters adversely affects any of these.

 

[Bucko]

The great oil debates! I would only offer this: if you use synthetic along with a quality filter, then leave it in the engine for its recommended oil life interval; don't waste money on synthetic oil and change it every 3 to 4K miles. Synthetics are designed for longer change intervals, and for harder abuse.

Otherwise, stick with Fords recommended blend oil and change it every 6K.

No brainer for me, as I got 4 free oil changes from the dealership. At the rate of mileage I put on the BS, I will be changing every 6 months rather than the mileage, so I have two years of free oil changes with them using the FoMoCo blend oil and Ford oil filters.

 

[sajohnson]

My brother is a machinist. For a time he maintained tooling for a company that produced oil filters (among other products). He took me to his "office" one day to show me the equipment he worked with--it was fascinating stuff for a gear head!

Anyway, to the point. As we were walking around, the machines were whirring and clanking away, stamping out and assembling the parts to make oil filters. I saw bare metal, assembled filters making their way down the production line in one section, then the fully painted, completed filters headed toward the packaging area in another. The thing that caught my eye was these filters were painted a bunch of different colors. As I got closer I noticed the logos: Quaker State, Pennzoil, Mobile, Valvoline, etc., etc. And yes, Fram too. They were all the same filter with different paint.

The "Fram is garbage" mantra has been going around the internet for quite some time now, almost all of it based on anecdotal data from "mechanics" who swear this or that engine was destroyed by a really, really, bad, horrible, no-good, Fram oil filter. Setting aside the difficulty of actually proving such a claim, anecdote is not a good way to judge quality. I'm not aware of any actual test data showing that Fram filters do not meet manufacturer specifications. You can certainly make one filter perform better than another, but like anything else there is a point of diminishing returns. For example, engineers could easily design a car that would 100% guarantee occupant safety in the event of any kind of crash one might experience on U.S. roads, but no one could afford it, it would probably be the least exciting vehicle you've ever driven, and it would be so uncomfortable you could only drive it for short periods.

The question you should ask is the same one you should ask about any product you use to maintain your car: Does it meet manufacturer specifications? I submit that given the number in use around the world, if Fram were selling filters that failed to meet manufacturer standards to the degree they were trashing engines, then there would be a lot more trashed engines out there.

Here's an interesting article that discusses the Fram-is-bad meme.

Great story about the filters all being the same -- classic! That should make some heads explode.

Marginally related: We have family in Iowa. When my brother and I were boys, our dad took us on a tour of a corn packing plant. At the end of the tour there were hundreds of pallets of canned corn -- Del Monte; Green Giant; store brands; generic. (Oh, and "creamed corn" is the damaged kernels).

It's the same with so many products -- water heaters; TVs, etc.

Anyway, the article and the Fram videos were great! That's what I suspected.

Quote:

"...given the number in use around the world, if Fram were selling filters that failed to meet manufacturer standards to the degree they were trashing engines, then there would be a lot more trashed engines out there."

My thoughts exactly. And if Fram filters were truly as horrible as the internet experts claim, Fram would have been sued out of existence long ago.

To be clear I'm not fan of any particular filter. As I mentioned in another post, a long time ago, CR tested a bunch of name-brand filters and Fram was #1. I used a lot of Fram filters back then. That said, things change. Testing methods vary. I would not be surprised if there are filters that are better in some way(s) -- but as you said using the safe car analogy, there are always trade-offs. A filter can only be so big. If the media is made more efficient -- say 98% @ 10 microns -- it would load up with contaminants more quickly, meaning that the bypass value would be open more often (no filtration at all).

Anyway, IMHO, people get WAY too OCD about filters (and oil). If we were talking about the engine in a fighter jet or Indy car, that level of concern might be justified -- but we are working on ordinary engines in passenger vehicles that are truly fine with anything that meets or exceeds mfr specs (assuming proper change intervals).

 

[cprcubed]

Just to throw in on this topic, I had a 93 Buick Skylark with the 3.3 V6. I used Fram filters and Castrol Syntec in it with 5k change intervals. That engine went 400k miles before it finally gave up the ghost. The valve covers were never removed and only the waterpump and alternator were ever replaced. I'll use a full synthetic and factory filters on the BS and if I get the same results, I'll be extremely pleased. Cheers!

 

[Glamdring70]

I religiously used Fram oil filters for years. Never lost an engine for it.
I threw a few Wix and Napa and maybe an STP and Bosch filter on. Never lost an engine.
I switched to the Mobil 1 religion a good while ago. Never lost an engine to them.
I've done two oil changes on the Bronco. Haven't lost the engine yet.

If you deep dive on filters, you'll go crazy. It's mostly paint. When you start counting pleats and flow volume, you've gone too far. If you're that concerned then you should be buying regular oil analyses. If the analysis is good, then the filter is good. If you feel any 1 given use of a lesser filter can grenade your ride, then how do you account for possible defective filters in your favorite brand? Cut 'em open for inspection prior to install?

 

[Meanderthal]

I stopped when I got to the part in the video about how Fram's lowest quality filter is made of "cardboard."

Well maybe you should have stayed around long enough to realize that what he was talking about was the end caps of the filter being cardboard, which they are. So, once they are soaked in oil, those cardboard end caps offer very little structural integrity to the filter media.

Okay, this is a sample of one, but I did use a Mobil 1 filter in my Golf R once. That filter did have pretty wimpy end caps on the filter media. On that car, the filter was just the filter element and the housing was something that was used over and over. When I changed the oil after using the Mobil 1 filter, the whole filter had collapsed in on itself. If this was a canister filter like is used on the BS, I would have never known this had happened.

That video I posted was just a very quick overview of a more detailed comparison. Maybe something to wet someone’s whistle to go digging a little deeper. You can see some of the issues with some of the lower quality filters, but if you really want more you would have to dig into that guys other videos (or someone else’s). If nothing else, that video shows that not every filter is the same inside, with the only difference being what is printed on the outside. What you saw on the tour of your brother’s workplace is not reality of what is available in oil filters. I have no doubt that there are some brands that go down the same production line and have little/no difference inside but that is far from the white wash you seemed to present. There are differences in oil filters, you can decide whether or not those differences are important to you, but the differences exist.

 

[RSH]

If I had a BS with the 1.5 Dragon I'd pay extra attention to the oil I use. The oil bathed timing belt could start to break down if not using the correct spec oil which could lead to clogged oil passages or worse. I would also make sure to change the oil on time. Maybe that's the reason Ford changed the oil pan on the Dragon so more oil can circulate to help keep contaminates in check.

 

[Mark S.]

Well maybe you should have stayed around long enough to realize that what he was talking about was the end caps of the filter being cardboard, which they are.

From the article I posted:

Fram does NOT use cardboard end-caps but resin impregnated endcaps, which are arguably better than metal end caps, the latter being harder to bond to a paper filter media.

Further, the filtration media is made from essentially the same material as the end caps: a combination of fiber and resin. Engine oil is forced through the filtration media under pressure for the duration of its service lift, and it seems to hold together during that process. Why would you expect the end caps, which see far LESS pressure than the filtration media, to fall apart?

 

[Meanderthal]

From the article I posted:


Further, the filtration media is made from essentially the same material as the end caps: a combination of fiber and resin. Engine oil is forced through the filtration media under pressure for the duration of its service lift, and it seems to hold together during that process. Why would you expect the end caps, which see far LESS pressure than the filtration media, to fall apart?

If you would actually watch the video, you would see the endcaps on the filter he had were just simply falling apart and if they were impregnated with anything, it was not holding up.

I know there are filters made with good endcaps that aren't steel. I used Mann filters in the VW after the Mobil 1 fiasco and they have impregnated ends and then held up fine. I don't think that I ever said that metal end caps are a requirement for me. Looking at what came out of that Fram filter in the video definitely would scare me off of at least that model of filter.

 

[Mark S.]

If you would actually watch the video, you would see the endcaps on the filter he had were just simply falling apart and if they were impregnated with anything, it was not holding up.

I watched it up to where he started tearing the end cap apart. This reviewer is evaluating oil filter material and design, but he's has not told us about his qualifications. Does he have any engineering and design credentials pertaining to oil filter manufacturing? As far as I can tell, his viewpoint is strictly from a layman's point of view, not a materials engineering point of view. And there's nothing in the video about how the filters do the job they were made for, only a critique of construction material.

Construction materials are designed to function in a given environment, and they often appear to be inappropriate or unsuitable when viewed outside of their intended environment. In this video, the filter material appeared to be dry; it had not been used yet. What happens to that material when it's exposed to hot engine oil? Again, it's made from essentially the same as the filtration media, which clearly holds together despite the enormous pressure of oil being forced through it. Why would you expect the end cap material to fall apart but not the filtration media?

If you look at the shelves in just about any auto supply store you'll see that Fram filters outnumber all other manufacturers combined. I contend that with so many filters in operation there is more than enough real-world use data available from which to draw conclusions about product suitability. It seems to me if people were experiencing problems with these filters the word would be out--where are the lawsuits?

To convince me that Fram filters don't work for their intended purpose I need to see data from a controlled study, not the opinion of someone who appears to be unqualified to evaluate construction material and methods.

 

[Bucko]

Easily resolved....Use the Ford motorcraft oil filters. Ford recommends them (go figure), are readily available at Wallymart and most big auto parts stores, and are good quality with good pricing.

 

[davidb1841]

If you would actually watch the video, you would see the endcaps on the filter he had were just simply falling apart and if they were impregnated with anything, it was not holding up.

I know there are filters made with good endcaps that aren't steel. I used Mann filters in the VW after the Mobil 1 fiasco and they have impregnated ends and then held up fine. I don't think that I ever said that metal end caps are a requirement for me. Looking at what came out of that Fram filter in the video definitely would scare me off of at least that model of filter.

Interesting.......So Purelator used to be made in my town ( Fayetteville, NC. ) Their Factory was purchased by MANN.....it is now a Mann factory!!.

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