Is this 4WD false advertisement from ford?? Check out the picture..

[Jrl]

The ~$28,900 price comes straight from the Ford Motor Company build sheet. It does not include: taxes; tags; title; dealer doc/prep fees, etc. So -- according to Ford -- the out the door price would be significantly higher. Sales tax alone here in Maryland is 6% -- $28,900 x 1.06 = $30,634. Then there is the $500 "doc prep" <cough> bs <cough> fee (legal state maximum) that essentially all dealers charge. So that takes it to $31,134. MVA tags & title fees are over $300 -- so the minimum out the door price for a stripped, base model BL is around $31,500 (in MD anyway) and that's if the dealer does not try to tack on extra fees -- ADM; pin stripes/fabric guard/paint protectant/floor mats/mud flaps/rust proofing/undercoating -- or my personal favorite (pushed by a local dealer): an antiviral treatment for the ductwork that allegedly kills 99.98% of all corona virus that circulates through the HVAC system. That was "normally" $1,700, but he'd let me have it for $1,200.

Those dealers are a clever bunch. They really know how to play people.

You are funning us ? My first edition back in dec 2020 43500 out the door . I chose it over a black diamond , actually the black diamond was a little bit less . Very pleased , and not a single issue.

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[hwildey]

It's common for people to think AWD = a vehicle that has all 4 wheels driven all the time, and can move if just one tire has traction.

Both of our older cars -- a 2002 5MT WRX and 1997 5MT RAV4 -- do have torque distributed to all 4 wheels all the time. That's becoming less common as mfrs try to increase fuel economy. The BS is a good example -- it is primarily a FWD SUV that uses a power distribution unit (PDU) to send power the rear when front wheel spin is detected, or when certain GOAT modes are selected.

Either -- "full-time" AWD or part-time AWD -- can work well. Personally, I like the idea of torque being distributed to all 4 wheels all the time. Then there is no delay -- no waiting for spin to be detected and the PDU clutch to engage, no need to manually select a 'drive mode'. That said, most of the time it's not a big deal.

So that's full-time vs part-time. The other major factor is how torque distribution is controlled. There is:

* No control -- all 3 diffs are open. Essentially ONE (1) wheel drive. Path of least resistance.
* All open diffs with the ABS used to limit wheelspin. It works, but risks brakes overheating.
* Viscous coupling units (VCUs) -- like my 2002 WRX.
* Clutches -- like the BS uses. Also the old-school "posi-traction".
* "Torsen" type differentials.
* Some combination of the above.

An example of "no control" is the 1997 4AT RAV4 we test drove (see post above). It would not even move off the dealer's property because it was parked in the grass and the right front wheel was spinning (that pesky path of least resistance).

The BS BL has clutches center and rear. I believe the front diff is open but ABS is used to limit spin and transfer torque. That works but is less than ideal. Still, it's obviously an off-road monster.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of variations of AWD. They definitely are not all created equal.

"4WD" typically refers to a system that has (at a minimum) a transfer case that locks -- providing a minimum of 2WD -- 1 front and 1 rear -- and low range gearing. Our RAV4 has a manually locking center diff (essentially four wheel high) and a Torsen rear, but no low range. It is very under powered, and even though the gearing is relatively low, there have been times when I wished it had a low range.

Sure, I was just trying to relate that the first time I heard the term AWD it was with the Audi Quattro and for a long time I thought it meant that the car was always driving all four wheels, but that there was a differential system that would prevent binding at high speeds. But I think for many people AWD means or used to mean just that and 4WD means you have some lockers and stuff. But now there is so much variation out there like you said and some AWD systems seem pretty smart and function like 4WD systems for 99.9% of what you are asking them to do.

 

[hwildey]

I’m really starting to think any car that can supply drivetrain power to all four wheels should be listed as 4WD and then differentiated from there.

The AWD vs. 4WD is clearly confusing and muddled even to those who know what’s going on. Why not simplify the language then expand on the tech after that?

Well, you know these car advertising and branding people know what we want before we do. I am sure they have the "what the consumer needs to know and what we should call it to maximize profit" ratio all built in.

 

[sajohnson]

I’m really starting to think any car that can supply drivetrain power to all four wheels should be listed as 4WD and then differentiated from there.

The AWD vs. 4WD is clearly confusing and muddled even to those who know what’s going on. Why not simplify the language then expand on the tech after that?

It can be confusing. I'm sure there are other definitions, but in general, as I said above:

"4WD" typically refers to a system that has (at a minimum) a transfer case that locks -- providing a minimum of 2WD -- 1 front and 1 rear -- and low range gearing."

I think most people agree that if a vehicle does not have a transfer case and both low and high range gearing, it is not "4WD".

It doesn't help that the vehicle mfrs sometimes use the terms interchangeably.

I do get what you are suggesting -- refer to both 4WD and AWD as "4WD". There's no reason that couldn't be done. There is a lot of overlap. Some AWD vehicles -- like our RAV4 -- even have the ability to lock the center diff. That is essentially 4-wheel high range.

So perhaps the primary difference between AWD and 4WD is low range gearing. I suppose the mfrs could use "AWD" exclusively and then go on to specify:

* Low range gearing? (Y/N)
* Locking diffs? (F/C/R) Type of locking mechanism, and manner of operation (auto/manual)
* Other torque control? VCUs; clutch packs; Torsen type diffs; ABS (brakes)?
* Full-time or part-time?

It doesn't matter how the information is conveyed, as long as the buyer is made aware of what they are getting.

For example, calling that old 4-speed auto RAV4 "AWD", while technically correct, was grossly misleading. I'll never forget sitting there with the engine running, parking brake off; trans in 'Drive', and not going anywhere. I put it in 'Low' and revved it up and it didn't budge. Finally my wife and I opened our doors and she saw that the right front tire was spinning on the grass! Talk about pathetic. But that's how open diffs operate. In that case, "AWD" = ONE wheel drive.

 

[13MikeH]

I say sue the bastards and get a full scale 4wD with manual locking front hubs and shift stick on the floor. Let me tell you that was a BLAST in sub zero winters when you hit snow and ice and had to stop, turn the red hub locks, engage the transmission, and creep until the 4H engaged...THAT is what you want in a 4WD Dedicated Bronco beast, not this mamby pamby intelligent system that can wait h from tire to tire faster than you can think!!! RAGE!!!! ANGAR!!!! (heavy dose of sarcasm)

 

[AmazingSieve]

I say sue the bastards and get a full scale 4wD with manual locking front hubs and shift stick on the floor. Let me tell you that was a BLAST in sub zero winters when you hit snow and ice and had to stop, turn the red hub locks, engage the transmission, and creep until the 4H engaged...THAT is what you want in a 4WD Dedicated Bronco beast, not this mamby pamby intelligent system that can wait h from tire to tire faster than you can think!!! RAGE!!!! ANGAR!!!! (heavy dose of sarcasm)

I had a box standard wrangler on high school, not my choice, it was yellow, I don’t like standing out like that….it was a blast….stick shift, no abs, great for the snow, having to downshift to use beehive braking to prevent a slide and then when it did go having to pump the brakes bc again, no abs.

 

[fsjdw2]

I had a box standard wrangler on high school, not my choice, it was yellow, I don’t like standing out like that….it was a blast….stick shift, no abs, great for the snow, having to downshift to use beehive braking to prevent a slide and then when it did go having to pump the brakes bc again, no abs.

True 4x4 is basically gone. I think you might be able to get it on some jeep trims, and that is IT. I don't think that even the full size broncos offer true 4x4. they have electronic diffs. The OLD school 4x4 (locking hubs, and true 50/50 split of power front and back) were VERY inefficient and likely wouldn't pass emissions today. There is a reason Jeep has Renegades, Cherokees, Compasses, with TINY engines in their fleets today. HEck Ford has the ecosport.

As for Subaru, the Viscus Coupling + X mode was awesome for what it was. I could take my forester places it shouldn't have gone, BUT if i got stuck i got stuck. once one wheel spun it would usually over torque to the other axle and the brakes wouldn't stop the wheel spin enough to matter. I was stuck. The only reason i didn't get another forester is they stopped the turbo versions, and the lack of front tow hooks.

 

[magicbus]

True 4x4 is basically gone…
As for Subaru, the Viscus Coupling + X mode was awesome for what it was. I could take my forester places it shouldn't have gone, BUT if i got stuck i got stuck. once one wheel spun it would usually over torque to the other axle and the brakes wouldn't stop the wheel spin enough to matter…

Which is why the Badlands 4 wheel lock is a great feature. Yes the computer locks the clutch on the rear and the option locks the clutch front to back, but everything is fluid cooled and is the closest I’ve seen to emulating hard locking 4WD.

 

[Osco]

To the OP, false advertising means little to the informed customers.
Even my BASE model is 4WD when it needs to be. It’s kicked in many times for me.
I would estimate that 75-80% of the BS buyers know nothing about manual locking or full time 4WD.
These ‘Escapes on Steroids’ these BS’S are very good 4WD vehicles.
So why worry about what the advertising department tells people.
Your either an In formed consumer or your not. Thing is the not so smart buyers are still getting a great AWD not some lame one wheel drive Subaru.
I think Ford Properly Advertised this very capable 4WD/AWD sport ute…..
FORD is giving us great new vehicles. The Maverick marks the return of the mini pickup.
The Bronco and the Bronco Sport are game changers.
Look around, every other car maker is scrambling to compete,
by rearranging fenders and dashboards, they will win some of the not so informed consumers.

This is why I continue to call the Bronco Sport An ‘Escape on Steroids’ :’P
I’ve got the 2004 Escape with 215,000 miles on the clock and I’d like to find one of these 2010 models. In black of course…
I like old chit, that I can still get parts for.

 

[69cuda340s]

Your either an In formed consumer or your not.

For the cost of a new vehicles these days one would think ppl would do a tiny bit of reading do a small amount of research and know what they are buying before making the purchase. Cause this thread sounds like someone bought the sport and then afterwards decided "they were misled" because "its not a real 4WD". ALL the info is out there and fairly easy to find as to what the sport is and is not. So if someone bought and then later determined after the purchase its not what they thought they bought whose fault is that?

 

[Jumbo1953]

I could write a book about friends and family that bought vehicles without researching. A friend of mine bought a 2009 Chevy Cobalt because he wanted a used car that got good gas mileage. Not only did the gas mileage disappoint him but I had to tell him he was driving a death trap. He only had it for about a year.

 

[Mark S.]

I think most people agree that if a vehicle does not have a transfer case and both low and high range gearing, it is not "4WD".

I guess I'm not among the "most people" crowd. For one thing, how do you define "transfer case?" The full-size Bronco does not have a true gear-driven transfer case, it utilizes liquid-cooled clutches. This is something many hard-core "4WD" nuts think is a bad thing. Would you not consider it a 4WD vehicle?

Further, a low-range has to do with how much torque may be applied to the wheels, not the function of the drive system. To me, a low-range has more to do with off-road capability than drive system nomenclature.

I'm with Cuda on this: It shouldn't be up to anyone other than the buyer to understand what exactly they are spending their money on. There are literally HUNDREDS of reviews in the automotive press about these vehicles describing the systems in detail. If you don't know what you're getting before plopping down a $#it-load of money it's your own fault.

 

[sajohnson]

Correct, the traditional "standard" has been set by enthusiasts who insist that a true 4x4 have a selectable transfer case or center diff lock, neither of which an average consumer would be privy to. Some consumers may also not be aware that the aforementioned "true" 4x4 pickup can be quickly relegated to 4x2 status (1 wheel front & 1 wheel rear) when the going gets rough, if not equipped with front and rear differential locks (which few are).

So what level(s) of capability would an industry standard be based on? IMO the intelligent AWD systems are getting very close and in some ways better than some traditional 4x4 systems, but I'm not sure how to define that.

I'm going through this thread again and came upon this post.

First of all -- you are absolutely correct about traditional "4WD" -- without locking front & rear diffs (or some way to transfer torque) they are really 2WD -- one front and one rear.

To be clear, in my previous posts I am not suggesting that 4WD is better than AWD. It's a matter of the right tool for the job. In fact, in most cases, 4WD is worse than a decent AWD system. Traditional 4WD cannot be engaged when there is good traction (the tires need to slide) -- which for the vast majority of drivers is almost all the time. Say it's winter and the roads are mostly clear, but there are areas of snow and ice. 4WD is practically useless because the driver must a) see the ice/snow before reaching it, b) come to a complete stop, c) engage 4-wheel 'high', d) immediately stop and switch back to 2WD once on dry pavement again.

In short, it's good that our Bronco Sports are AWD and not 4WD!

As I mentioned above, one major factor that differentiates 4WD from AWD is low range gearing. That's no loss for most people -- unless you plan to pull stumps or something.

Our '97 RAV4 has a manually locking center diff and a Torsen rear, so traction is not a problem, but there have been times when I wished it had a low range, or at least a 'granny gear'. For example, there is a steep hill on our road. A confused semi driver (who should not have been there) got stuck. There was room to go around but that meant climbing and even steeper embankment. The RAV was almost fully loaded and did not like the idea of starting out from a stop on that steep of a hill. I might have been able to do it but it would have meant smoking the clutch. So we turned around and drove several miles vs maybe 3/10 mile.

Situations like that do not happen often, if at all. I'm not worried about it with the BS BL because it's an automatic. That's not a replacement for creeper gears for hard core rock crawling, but it's safe to say that most of us will not miss the lack of a low range.

To attempt to answer your question ("...what level(s) of capability would an industry standard be based on?) my guess is that the mfrs would reject the idea of one standard, even though there's nothing wrong with it. They might say they want to offer varying degrees of capability (as with the BS trims). Personally, I'd like to see AWD = a vehicle that can move on a steep incline with just one tire having traction.

Of course that would cost more than the average "AWD" system, and some people might say they do not want to pay for capability they don't need.

That's why I've suggested that there be some sort of simple graphic diagram that could be placed next to the window sticker -- so that potential buyers can see at a glance what sort of capability the vehicle has. Of course that will probably never happen, but a boy can dream...

 

[sajohnson]

You are funning us ? My first edition back in dec 2020 43500 out the door . I chose it over a black diamond , actually the black diamond was a little bit less . Very pleased , and not a single issue.

I'm not sure what you mean. The numbers I quoted were from Ford -- plus tax/tags/title and the dealer's doc prep fee.

 

[sajohnson]

Regarding research -- if anything I typically spend too much time researching products before making a purchase. I always recommend that people do their 'due diligence' and read up on whatever it is they are are considering buying. Check out all of their options, etc.

That said, while we all agree that people should do their homework, that does not let mfrs off the hook when it comes to being forthcoming with product info and specs. In fact, while there are no hard and fast "rules", I've found that generally, the more info the mfr/vendor provides, the better the product tends to be.

Of course auto mfrs are only required to provide the information required by law (MPG; MSRP; safety, etc): https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/articles/what_car_shoppers_need_to_know_about_window_stickers

Still, generally speaking, mfrs (of all products) go out of their way to list features and specs.

At the end of the day though, as has been pointed out, people can generally find the information online. Still, most BS Forum members are "car guys" who realize there is a wide range of AWD systems. The majority of people know little/nothing about cars. When they hear/read "all-wheel drive" (or 4WD) it is understandable that they might think, "AWD =AWD". End of story. It might not occur to them that there are many different systems, and that they can be 1; 2; 3; or 4 wheel drive. So they do not even know to ask, or research it.

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