Is this 4WD false advertisement from ford?? Check out the picture..

[RiotfunK]

Reading this thread and others like this makes me face palm. Mods please close this thread. So much dumb

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[sajohnson]

A friend just sent me a link to a video about a class B RV Ford Transit conversion.

The RV is very well done and has 2WD (w/ limited slip); AWD; and 4WD (aftermarket conversion) options.

The AWD sounds very similar to what's in the BS. Here's an FAQ:
https://www.modvans.com/faq/4x4-vs-awd

They agree with most of us that the AWD system is plenty for all but serious rock crawling.

(It's a pretty slick class B conversion too.)

 

[Emma77]

A friend just sent me a link to a video about a class B RV Ford Transit conversion.

The RV is very well done and has 2WD (w/ limited slip); AWD; and 4WD conversion options.

The AWD sounds very similar to what's in the BS. Here's an FAQ:
https://www.modvans.com/faq/4x4-vs-awd

They agree with most of us that the AWD system is plenty for all but serious rock crawling.

(It's a pretty slick conversion too.)

This video is very helpful for me

 

[MaxVelocity]

As I mentioned above, one major factor that differentiates 4WD from AWD is low range gearing. That's no loss for most people -- unless you plan to pull stumps or something.

Ford sold millions of pickups in the 60's and 70's that were 4x4 with a single speed Dana 21 transfer case that did not have low range - simply 2 wheel and 4 wheel. I don't think that disqualifies those trucks from being considered a true 4x4. Low range simply adds lower gearing for more torque at slower speed, but has nothing to do with how many wheels receive that torque.

 

[69cuda340s]

Majority of pickups with large 4x4 stickers on the bed sides have an open differential front and rear. One wheel in front and one in back have traction. Guess those aren't real 4WD either right?

 

[sajohnson]

Ford sold millions of pickups in the 60's and 70's that were 4x4 with a single speed Dana 21 transfer case that did not have low range - simply 2 wheel and 4 wheel. I don't think that disqualifies those trucks from being considered a true 4x4. Low range simply adds lower gearing for more torque at slower speed, but has nothing to do with how many wheels receive that torque.

Sigh..

True, of course.

Earlier in this threat (and in general) there is some confusion as to whether AWD = 4WD, and if not, what differentiates the two.

Most people in the industry say that traditional "4-wheell drive" has a transfer case, low range gearing, and locking hubs (either manual or automatic).

That's not an inviolable rule from on high, just a general statement to try and clarify the situation.

There are exceptions to every "rule", as you pointed out. Every 4WD vehicle owner does not need/use low range gearing. Traditionally/typically though, most 4WD vehicles have a low range.

If we include those Ford pickup trucks with high range only, then perhaps the primary difference is that "4WD" requires that the driver engage it manually, while "AWD" does not require any operator involvement (although, in vehicles like the BS, the driver may chose to engage certain modes manually).

Our '97 RAV4 has a 'hybrid' system. It is full-time AWD (it does not switch from 2WD to AWD). The front and center diffs are normally open, but (when stopped) you can press a button on the dash and lock the center -- essentially '4-wheel high range'. It also has a Torsen rear. No traction control in '97 though, so it is basically 3WD -- both rear tires and one in front have to spin before you're stuck.

In any case, according to the definitions above the RAV is both AWD and 4WD. Unlike typical 4WD vehicles however, it is not normally 2WD, and Toyota refers to it as AWD.

Another difference is that 4WD is *part-time* (slippery surfaces only) while AWD is full-time.

4WD is only beneficial in circumstances that most people never (or rarely) encounter.

 

[sajohnson]

Majority of pickups with large 4x4 stickers on the bed sides have an open differential front and rear. One wheel in front and one in back have traction. Guess those aren't real 4WD either right?

IDK if your question is directed at me, but if so, I've never heard anyone suggest that trucks with open diffs are not "4WD".

The most common definition I've seen from people in the car & truck industry is "a transfer case to lock the front and rear together and low range gearing". Manually operated, part-time.

As MaxVelocity pointed out, Ford sold millions of 4WD trucks with no low range -- so perhaps that portion of the definition should be dropped. I'm just the messenger -- just repeating what I've read over the last 45 years.

My personal opinion is that if a part-time 4WD system or a full-time AWD system is not truly 4WD or AWD, the mfr should say so. But that's just one person's opinion. Clearly that is not the case and probably never will be unless they are forced to do it.

As has been pointed out here, people should do their homework before buying, and I agree. At the same time it is understandable that many people seeing "four (4)-wheel drive or ALL-wheel drive will assume that the mfrs are 'saying what they mean, and meaning what they say'.

 

[69cuda340s]

IDK if your question is directed at me, but if so, I've never heard anyone suggest that trucks with open diffs are not "4WD".

Not directed at you. But very common to see 4x4 big stickers on bed sides of pickups and majority of them have open diffs front and rear so lame one wheel on each axle can push. So majority of '4x4' pickups out there aren't what ppl think they are.

Guy I know buys new F150 4x4 so I ask does it have locking rear axle? Answer: I don't know?? So another genius not a clue what they bought. But it has big 4x4 stickers on the bed sides right?

 

[sajohnson]

Not directed at you. But very common to see 4x4 big stickers on bed sides of pickups and majority of them have open diffs front and rear so lame one wheel on each axle can push. So majority of '4x4' pickups out there aren't what ppl think they are.

Guy I know buys new F150 4x4 so I ask does it have locking rear axle? Answer: I don't know?? So another genius not a clue what they bought. But it has big 4x4 stickers on the bed sides right?

Exactly!

"4x4" and "4WD" (as well as "AWD") have become marketing slogans.

There is usually *some* additional capability but typically the mfrs do not literally mean "all 4 wheels are (or can be) driven and torque is managed so that if any one tire has traction, the vehicle can move -- even up a steep (X% grade) incline".

Mfrs pick up on the fact that certain words help sell their products:

* "Turbo"
* "Tactical"
* "Off-Road"
* "Rubicon"
* "Extreme"
* "High resolution"
* "Megapixels"
* "Rugged"
* "Industrial/commercial grade"

Then they pound them into the ground. "Turbo" is one of the best examples -- it gets slapped on everything.

You're absolutely right -- there are a lot of people who have more money than sense. I may be a bit more sympathetic toward them than most. If a 'car guy' like myself bought a vehicle because it has "AWD" but didn't bother checking out the design/specs, shame on them. But I try to imagine what it is like for someone who doesn't have a clue about vehicles -- they know they need AWD, but might understandably think that AWD is an industry standard feature -- that all AWD cars have the same system. So they do not know enough to realize what they don't know.

I'm just trying to give people like that the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day though, you'd think most people would do some research.

 

[magicbus]

Guy I know buys new F150 4x4 so I ask does it have locking rear axle? Answer: I don't know?? So another genius not a clue what they bought. But it has big 4x4 stickers on the bed sides right?

I spend all day driving either an F150 or F250 in deep soft sand and have never once hit the rear diff lock button because then it handles like crap. 4H and anti and advanced track control off and it drives through anything. The F150 even has the big 4X4 logo on the side .

 

[69cuda340s]

I spend all day driving either an F150 or F250 in deep soft sand and have never once hit the rear diff lock button because then it handles like crap. 4H and anti and advanced track control off and it drives through anything. The F150 even has the big 4X4 logo on the side .

My '16 F150 has locking rear diff and no need to hit diff lock button it locks unlocks automatically when it detects slip. So fact you aren't 'hitting button' does not mean its not doing anything.

And 4x4 with open diffs are lame.

 

[MaxVelocity]

Most people in the industry say that traditional "4-wheell drive" has a transfer case, low range gearing, and locking hubs (either manual or automatic).

Whoever "Most people in the industry" are, they are simply wrong. In addition to my single-speed transfer case example above, there have also been many 4x4 pickups sold over the decades without locking hubs. So that's strike #2.

 

[sajohnson]

I spend all day driving either an F150 or F250 in deep soft sand and have never once hit the rear diff lock button because then it handles like crap. 4H and anti and advanced track control off and it drives through anything. The F150 even has the big 4X4 logo on the side .

We should all get ginormous "4x4" logos for our Bronco Sports -- then we will be invincible!

Similar to your experience with the rear diff lock, I found that locking the center diff on our RAV4 (on snow/ice) makes it handle worse. It 'crabs' side to side. We treat the center diff lock as a last resort if we need extra traction. With good winter tires and and the diff locked, it is almost unstoppable, but we rarely need to drive it that way.

Needless to say, when all 4 tires have essentially equal traction -- all 4 on snow/wet pavement/ice/sand/mud -- torque management and/or locking diffs are often not necessary. It's when the difference in traction is significant that clutches, lockers, etc. become necessary.

That's why Subaru's "official AWD test" is so ridiculous. They say to take the car to a gravel road or lot, rev it up and dump the clutch. If all 4 tires spin then it's good.

There's a very good chance all 4 tires will spin under those conditions, because there is no 'path of least resistance'. Tests done with rollers (or 'real world' situations with varying traction between tires) are what's needed to determine how effective a 4WD or AWD system is.

 

[sajohnson]

Whoever "Most people in the industry" are, they are simply wrong. In addition to my single-speed transfer case example above, there have also been many 4x4 pickups sold over the decades without locking hubs. So that's strike #2.

As I said above:

"The most common definition I've seen from people in the car & truck industry is "a transfer case to lock the front and rear together and low range gearing". Manually operated, part-time."

The "low range gearing" part can be eliminated, so that it becomes something like:

"A transfer case to lock the front and rear diffs together". Manually operated, part-time, for use only when traction is limited."

I don't have a horse in this race. There is some confusion about what constitutes 4WD (vs AWD) so I thought I'd try to be helpful and pass on what I've read over the years.

I'm not trying to start an epic debate.

What would you say is an accurate definition of 4WD?

How would you say 4WD differs from AWD?

Those are questions that many people have. It would be very helpful if the auto industry would answer them definitively.

 

[sajohnson]

My '16 F150 has locking rear diff and no need to hit diff lock button it locks unlocks automatically when it detects slip. So fact you aren't 'hitting button' does not mean its not doing anything.

And 4x4 with open diffs are lame.

Not arguing with you, we're on the same page, but I would add that open diffs (4WD or AWD) are *sometimes* lame. As I posted above, if the vehicle is typically operated where traction is about equal between all 4 tires -- all 4 on the same surface -- then open diffs can work OK. There's no need for torque control -- no path of least resistance.

For example, it was only when I inadvertently parked my WRX with one rear tire on ice (to close our gate) went to pull forward -- and rolled backwards with the rear tire spinning(!) -- that I realized it essentially has all 3 open diffs (the center and rear VCUs transfer very little torque).

Prior to that, it wasn't a problem (or at least I didn't notice it) because any difference in traction was usually minimal, and/or I had some momentum going.

So it depends on the expected use, but clearly having the ability to lock all 3 diffs is ideal for traction in really tough situations.

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