Olive - Meanderthal’s BS BL

[Meanderthal]

It is always the offset that throws me off. But this helped clear it up, in essence I start with a large positive offset and the more offset added gets me closer to 0 and will stick out farther correct. So any offset from 38mm on down would work?

Yes, that basically covers it. There aren't many negative offset wheels in the world. Offset is the measure of the distance from the center of the wheel width to the mounting face of the wheel (where the wheel hits the hub). The larger the positive offset the closer the outside face of the wheel is to the mounting face of the wheel.

Maybe all that is just more confusing but at least I tried.

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[Meanderthal]

It is always the offset that throws me off. But this helped clear it up, in essence I start with a large positive offset and the more offset added gets me closer to 0 and will stick out farther correct. So any offset from 38mm on down would work?

Just one more bit of information to confuse things even more. A lower offset will also mean that the maximum tire diameter you can run is reduced for the BS. Because the clearance issue is at the back of the front wheel wells, a lower offset moves the corner of the tire toward that interference point. My Toyos are a little smaller than the specification for a 245/65/16 at 29" diameter. The specification is 29.5". I think this small change in diameter made the 25mm spacer possible. If the tire was actually to specification or a little bigger, I would have a more substantial rubbing issue.

 

[Mark S.]

It is always the offset that throws me off.

Everything you ever wanted to know about wheel offset.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=101

 

[RogueRodney]

Meanderthal:

Yeah, I know me again... On the plus side I think I've shown that I'm listening to you and learning in this space. On the negative side, I have a ways to go.

I know you said your tires on Olive were Toyo Open Country A/T 245/70/16. That you are using 16's so that you can go with the 70's and that you have a 1" Spacer with maybe a few extra Millimeters from the wheel/rim change.

What I don't understand is where are you rubbing? I'm sure you've said, but I'm sure it hasn't translated in my mind.

If you take the front left driver's tire for example, is it the front left/right? Or Back Left/Right? or is it the 70's themselves rubbing on the top when you go over obstacles?

Why I ask. My basic setup is much like yours (thanks in no small part to you). I'm running the fordrangerlifts 1.75" Lift for the Bronco Sport, I have a 1" spacer. I'm currently on the Falken A/T AT3W 235/65/R17 Upgrades that come from the factory.

At present I'm not encountering any rubbing (though I haven't off roaded yet, still planning that out, first time).

I have one big difference from your ride. I like my bolt on (completely useless) plastic fenders. I know I can hear you grinding your teeth.

That adds like a 1 to 1.5" overhang over the tires.

With the 1" spacer on the Falken A/T AT3W 235/65/R17, it is almost flush or maybe just abit outside the hang of the bolt on fender. Looks better than before the spacer, but isn't as aggessive as I would like.

I don't think taking the spacer out is an option, the tire would retreat into the wheel well. Even if I went with a 245/65/17, it would be playing turtle...

I'm thinking of going the opposite way and getting a 2" spacer to push it out abit more.

The Falkens have proven to be a pretty good tire (honestly, I'm kinda impressed). But I would like to go up to a 245/65/17 model. I'm thinking about the Toyo Open Country ATIII or the Nittor Ridge Grappler (which I think is also made by Toyo oddly). The Toyo seems to have a qualitative edge over the Nitto's but the Nitto's are pretty damn neat (ok, the pun was there couldn't miss it).

Obviously I don't want concerns with rubbing, and just as obviously I'm very new to this (though I feel I've learned alot).

First, if I move to a 2" Spacer (to get the tire outside of my bolt on fenders), do you see a problem with the tire I have.

Second, if I then go to a 245/65/17 Tire, where do you think I would encounter concerns?

I know you don't have a crystal ball or anything, just trying to understand the dimensions at play.

To me pushing the tire farther away would seem to give me more clearance with right/left turns at full tilt. And I don't see how I could rub on the top of the wheel well with the lift I have.

I'm sure I'm missing something but I'm not sure what it is and it's driving me nuts...

On my current tire (235/65/17), I have 3" from the front of the wheel well, 3" from the back, and 5.5" from the bottom of the plastic bolt on thing you hate.

Anyway if you could key me into what I'm missing I would appreciate it, and let me know your thoughts on the 2" spacer.

Thanks for everything you've taught me thus far. I'm really enjoying playing with this new toy (the Badlands).

Can't wait to get somewhere and share a pic of the little monster. (I live in a suburb on a flat plain, really want a tree in the background, you Idaho boys have no idea how good you have things).

Much thanks for any/all advice.

RR

 

[Meanderthal]

Meanderthal:

Yeah, I know me again... On the plus side I think I've shown that I'm listening to you and learning in this space. On the negative side, I have a ways to go.

I know you said your tires on Olive were Toyo Open Country A/T 245/70/16. That you are using 16's so that you can go with the 70's and that you have a 1" Spacer with maybe a few extra Millimeters from the wheel/rim change.

What I don't understand is where are you rubbing? I'm sure you've said, but I'm sure it hasn't translated in my mind.

If you take the front left driver's tire for example, is it the front left/right? Or Back Left/Right? or is it the 70's themselves rubbing on the top when you go over obstacles?

Why I ask. My basic setup is much like yours (thanks in no small part to you). I'm running the fordrangerlifts 1.75" Lift for the Bronco Sport, I have a 1" spacer. I'm currently on the Falken A/T AT3W 235/65/R17 Upgrades that come from the factory.

At present I'm not encountering any rubbing (though I haven't off roaded yet, still planning that out, first time).

I have one big difference from your ride. I like my bolt on (completely useless) plastic fenders. I know I can hear you grinding your teeth.

That adds like a 1 to 1.5" overhang over the tires.

With the 1" spacer on the Falken A/T AT3W 235/65/R17, it is almost flush or maybe just abit outside the hang of the bolt on fender. Looks better than before the spacer, but isn't as aggessive as I would like.

I don't think taking the spacer out is an option, the tire would retreat into the wheel well. Even if I went with a 245/65/17, it would be playing turtle...

I'm thinking of going the opposite way and getting a 2" spacer to push it out abit more.

The Falkens have proven to be a pretty good tire (honestly, I'm kinda impressed). But I would like to go up to a 245/65/17 model. I'm thinking about the Toyo Open Country ATIII or the Nittor Ridge Grappler (which I think is also made by Toyo oddly). The Toyo seems to have a qualitative edge over the Nitto's but the Nitto's are pretty damn neat (ok, the pun was there couldn't miss it).

Obviously I don't want concerns with rubbing, and just as obviously I'm very new to this (though I feel I've learned alot).

First, if I move to a 2" Spacer (to get the tire outside of my bolt on fenders), do you see a problem with the tire I have.

Second, if I then go to a 245/65/17 Tire, where do you think I would encounter concerns?

I know you don't have a crystal ball or anything, just trying to understand the dimensions at play.

To me pushing the tire farther away would seem to give me more clearance with right/left turns at full tilt. And I don't see how I could rub on the top of the wheel well with the lift I have.

I'm sure I'm missing something but I'm not sure what it is and it's driving me nuts...

On my current tire (235/65/17), I have 3" from the front of the wheel well, 3" from the back, and 5.5" from the bottom of the plastic bolt on thing you hate.

Anyway if you could key me into what I'm missing I would appreciate it, and let me know your thoughts on the 2" spacer.

Thanks for everything you've taught me thus far. I'm really enjoying playing with this new toy (the Badlands).

Can't wait to get somewhere and share a pic of the little monster. (I live in a suburb on a flat plain, really want a tree in the background, you Idaho boys have no idea how good you have things).

Much thanks for any/all advice.

RR

Any and all rubbing starts at the back/center/bottom of the wheel well. My tire diameter for a 245/70/16 is the same as a 245/65/17, other than the Toyo's seem to run a little small. If you put your hand inside the wheel well on the back side, you can feel the pinch weld flange that is the source of our issues with rubbing.

You're right, I don't have a crystal ball. My intuition tells me that going to a 2" spacer will lead to a rub. If you then add more tire diameter and width by going to a 245, it will only get worse.

If you think about the outside edge of the tire, where the tread stops/starts, that is the part of the tire that will rub. With the wheel turned all, or nearly all, of the way to one side; that outside edge of the tire gets closer and closer to that flange the wider the tire is or the more you space the wheel out.

If you look at my pictures of this issue on the first page of this thread, maybe that will help you make sense of the rub condition. Given what I have seen, measured, and felt; I cannot understand how Delm got 255's to work without a rub or trimming of sheet metal. At least not when the wheel is turned and the suspension compressed, which is where rubbing happens.

 

[RogueRodney]

Yikes!

I asked my girlfriend to turn the wheel over to I could see what you were talking about and my current 235/65/17's almost rub (in fact they may rub, but I don't see any wear on the fabric, what's up with the fabric anyway, that seems like a bad design plan. I guess noise reduction)?.

I don't normally put it through that much articulation, but I'm so glad I asked the stupid question. Your right, 2" spacers are going back, you would think those would come with a warning.

Thanks for educating me!

RR

 

[Dmbleist]

@Meanderthal - are you able to post more details about the antenna you bought!! Apologies if I missed details in the thread - I’m looking to replace with something similar to what you purchased! Appreciate your help!

 

[Meanderthal]

@Meanderthal - are you able to post more details about the antenna you bought!! Apologies if I missed details in the thread - I’m looking to replace with something similar to what you purchased! Appreciate your help!

CravenSpeed Stubby Jr Antenna Compatible with Ford Ranger 2019-2022 | 2 Inches https://a.co/d/2SqVgeU

 

[Dmbleist]

CravenSpeed Stubby Jr Antenna Compatible with Ford Ranger 2019-2022 | 2 Inches https://a.co/d/2SqVgeU

THANK YOU!!

 

[FakeCowboy]

Yikes!

I asked my girlfriend to turn the wheel over to I could see what you were talking about and my current 235/65/17's almost rub (in fact they may rub, but I don't see any wear on the fabric, what's up with the fabric anyway, that seems like a bad design plan. I guess noise reduction)?.

I don't normally put it through that much articulation, but I'm so glad I asked the stupid question. Your right, 2" spacers are going back, you would think those would come with a warning.

Thanks for educating me!

RR

You're better off without spacers, not only do they potentially put stress on your wheel bearings which could cause them to need replacement prematurely but they change something called scrub radius which could adversely affect the way your vehicle handles under emergency braking situations. Nothing good comes from spacers aside from maybe the look but with too many trade offs. The only way a vehicle should be given a wider stance is by using wheels with the appropriate width and offset which maintains the original scrub radius.

 

[Meanderthal]

The only way a vehicle should be given a wider stance is by using wheels with the appropriate width and offset which maintains the original scrub radius.

Either way you make the change, the scrub radius is changed. A wheel with a different offset is not any different than a wheel with a spacer, in terms of scrub radius or stress on wheel bearings and other suspension components.

 

[FakeCowboy]

Either way you make the change, the scrub radius is changed. A wheel with a different offset is not any different than a wheel with a spacer, in terms of scrub radius or stress on wheel bearings and other suspension components.

This is 1,000% incorrect......if you use a wider wheel which the BS has plenty of clearance between the inside of the wheel and the struts and shocks, you can effectively maintain scrub radius by using a wheel with the correct offset.

 

[FakeCowboy]

Either way you make the change, the scrub radius is changed. A wheel with a different offset is not any different than a wheel with a spacer, in terms of scrub radius or stress on wheel bearings and other suspension components.

I made some graphics for you. Compare the first graphic using the stock wheels along with a 25mm spacer, you get 25mm of additional poke obviously but you ruined your scrub radius. Now compare that with an 8.5" wheel with the same 37mm offset, you only get about 20mm of additional poke but you at least maintain your scrub radius, it's a much better/safer compromise

 

[Meanderthal]

This is 1,000% incorrect......if you use a wider wheel which the BS has plenty of clearance between the inside of the wheel and the struts and shocks, you can effectively maintain scrub radius by using a wheel with the correct offset.

Okay, yes if you increase the wheel width by 2" (really the tire width but you can't increase that much without also increasing the wheel width). In order to maintain the scrub radius, you would have to essentially add width on both sides, which is what I think you are saying.

Spacing the wheels out leads to either a positive scrub radius or a more positive scrub radius. Here is part of the Wikipedia page:

​

Large positive values of scrub radius, 4 inches/100 mm or so, were used in cars for many years. The advantage of this is that the tire rolls as the wheel is steered, which reduces the effort when parking, provided you're not on the brake.​

​

The advantage of a small scrub radius is that the steering becomes less sensitive to braking inputs. More scrub radius adds to road feel by pushing the inside wheel into the ground.​

​

An advantage of a negative scrub radius is that the geometry naturally compensates for split μ (mu) braking, or failure in one of the brake circuits. It also provides center point steering in the event of a tire deflation, which provides greater stability and steering control in this emergency.​

​

I'm sure that the Bronco Sport does not have anywhere near a +4" positive scrub radius and a wheel spacer does not get it anywhere near that either.

Even if we assumed that we could add wheel/tire width on both sides in equal amounts, the wear and tear on wheel bearings and other suspension components would be increased by the added weight of that wheel/tire combo.

By adding a spacer we are probably changing from what the link describes as a small scrub radius to a slightly higher positive scrub radius.

 

[FakeCowboy]

Okay, yes if you increase the wheel width by 2" (really the tire width but you can't increase that much without also increasing the wheel width). In order to maintain the scrub radius, you would have to essentially add width on both sides, which is what I think you are saying.

Spacing the wheels out leads to either a positive scrub radius or a more positive scrub radius. Here is part of the Wikipedia page:

​

Large positive values of scrub radius, 4 inches/100 mm or so, were used in cars for many years. The advantage of this is that the tire rolls as the wheel is steered, which reduces the effort when parking, provided you're not on the brake.​

​

The advantage of a small scrub radius is that the steering becomes less sensitive to braking inputs. More scrub radius adds to road feel by pushing the inside wheel into the ground.​

​

An advantage of a negative scrub radius is that the geometry naturally compensates for split μ (mu) braking, or failure in one of the brake circuits. It also provides center point steering in the event of a tire deflation, which provides greater stability and steering control in this emergency.​

​

I'm sure that the Bronco Sport does not have anywhere near a +4" positive scrub radius and a wheel spacer does not get it anywhere near that either.

Even if we assumed that we could add wheel/tire width on both sides in equal amounts, the wear and tear on wheel bearings and other suspension components would be increased by the added weight of that wheel/tire combo.

By adding a spacer we are probably changing from what the link describes as a small scrub radius to a slightly higher positive scrub radius.

I gave you visual aids with actual dimensions, not a wikipedia page with arbitrary and non BS specific specs. Believe what you choose but Ford engineers designed the bronco sport to handle and react with a specific scrub radius, my suggestion is to maintain it and put less stress on the already cheap made in china wheel bearings but do what ever floats your boat.

Edit: I'm not sure you understand the purpose of scrub radius especially for braking. In emergency braking, if one front tire has more traction than the other, a very positive scrub radius could produce a significant yaw meaning the your bronco sport will not brake in a straight line.

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