National Park Service Will Cite Drivers Of AWD Cars For Driving On 4WD-Only Trails

[The Shark]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-driving-on-4wd-only-trails/ar-AA1otL3J?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=559f70e7a19642d493c30d37ab2a7573&ei=23

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[Bronclahoma]

Once again! Saved by our government. Don't know how I'd survive without the regulations of these unelected bureacrats.

 

[Arcee]

Sure, I get it. But to potentially take someone's vehicle over this (I'm assuming that's what is meant by "collateral forfeiture")? That's a bit much, so is jail time. A fine makes sense, as well as making the owner pay any costs associated with the resources used to respond/rescue/retrieve.

My question is, how does the NPS determine what kind of system a vehicle has to accurately enforce this? Do the rangers carry a list with them to reference? Plus there are some systems labeled as 4x4 which are basically AWD...for example Jeep's Quadra-Trac I system. You don't get a 2-speed transfer case and lockers until you have Quadra-Trac II. Are they going to cite someone driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo with QTI, but let higher trim Jeep Grand Cherokee drivers with QTII go? Likewise, there are AWD systems that have "simulated" lockers and are way more capable than their AWD designation would seem to indicate.

This whole policy by the NPS seems nearly impossible to enforce.

 

[WildFord]

The rules/laws may need to be updated to current technologies. what about a 4-motor Rivian which is just as capable of a 4WD. or any EV "4WD". it is all up to the program of how to manage the power to the wheels between front and back.

I certainly know some older AWD system simply dig holes when encounter a steep rocky/loose hill. sometime a 4WD system w/o lockers has the same problem...and I know a BMW 5 series AWD sedan has able climbe up some loose hills that 4WD w/o lockers had trouble. yeah...it may have also scrapped bottom all the way up.

are they going to enforce a ground clearance or approach angle rule??

I can certainly understand the intention of the law. Perhaps just need to say rescue is to be pay by those need it. much like a heli evac, sometime those unfortunate people can be stuck with a big bill beyond their medical bills. maybe every trail needs a appropriate gate keeper obstacle at the start.

this is interesting...I wonder Subaru will lobby against this (with all other manufacturer who makes capable AWD system)

 

[Bucko]

As I mentioned in the other thread started on this topic, a savvy lawyer can be all over this.

If they can get a murderer off, they can certainly beat this ticket.

 

[Mark S.]

As I mentioned in the other thread started on this topic, a savvy lawyer can be all over this.

If they can get a murderer off, they can certainly beat this ticket.

This might be true following the SCOTUS Chevron ruling, but it would almost certainly cost more than simply paying the ticket. Prior to the Chevron ruling, there would be almost no chance of beating a ticket like this. Mainly because of the deference given to Federal government agencies to interpret their own rules. This is one of the big benefits of the Chevron ruling; rules made by federal bureaucracies must now pass judicial scrutiny if disputed.

 

[Deleted member 12075]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-driving-on-4wd-only-trails/ar-AA1otL3J?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=559f70e7a19642d493c30d37ab2a7573&ei=23

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[RWT]

Be careful what you ask for.

I agree the NPS needs to update their policy to be more clear and concise and possibly consider newer technology. However, if people don't play by the rules they can take away the toys. Back during the peak of Covid, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) just outright closed numerous dispersed camping areas (boondocking or dry camping) due to abuse and misuse. Some of which never re-opened.

The National Park Service (NPS) could do the same thing to current trails restricted to "High Clearance 4X4 Vehicles". Yep, just close them to everyone.

The author of the article below contacted the NPS and received some responses. The article actually includes some correspondence from the NPS on the issue. One of the main issues with the AWD appears to be the lack of a "Low" gear transfer case (AKA: 2 speed transfer case).

https://www.theautopian.com/why-the-national-park-service-will-toss-you-in-jail-for-driving-an-awd-vehicle-on-certain-trails-and-how-to-avoid-it/

Do Suby drivers, or BS drivers for that matter, really think they are driving a "High Clearance 4X4 Vehicle"? I agree the government shouldn't tell us we can't go there but we should just be smart enough to not go there in the first place.

The trade off of owning a rugged and somewhat capable CUV that has very good on-road handling characteristics, is it's off road capabilities are limited. Owners should be willing to accept the reality of those limitations or buy a vehicle designed for off-road use, i.e., Jeep Wrangler or Ford Bronco, and put up with the bad on-road characteristics.

JMHO
No expertise implied or expressed

 

[Robink]

I live in southwestern Utah. The problem as I see it is when these AWD vehicles get stuck, people behind them on the trail get stuck too. Most times there is no way to get around them or to turn around. I also know a good driver can get some of these vehicles through but the average person who thinks he has "4WD" AWD without a low range transfer case most of the time gets stuck. Personally I think they are tired of rescuing people who shouldn't be there with their vehicle. I live in in a huge off roading area and 5 National Parks. In my county we only have one BLM ranger covering a gigantic area. They can't be everywhere and more and more people are getting hurt and don't have the skills to do what they are doing or to SELF RESCUE. They see car commercials and u tube videos and want to try.

 

[sajohnson]

Sure, I get it. But to potentially take someone's vehicle over this (I'm assuming that's what is meant by "collateral forfeiture")? That's a bit much, so is jail time. A fine makes sense, as well as making the owner pay any costs associated with the resources used to respond/rescue/retrieve.

My question is, how does the NPS determine what kind of system a vehicle has to accurately enforce this? Do the rangers carry a list with them to reference? Plus there are some systems labeled as 4x4 which are basically AWD...for example Jeep's Quadra-Trac I system. You don't get a 2-speed transfer case and lockers until you have Quadra-Trac II. Are they going to cite someone driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo with QTI, but let higher trim Jeep Grand Cherokee drivers with QTII go? Likewise, there are AWD systems that have "simulated" lockers and are way more capable than their AWD designation would seem to indicate.

This whole policy by the NPS seems nearly impossible to enforce.

Exactly.

I'd add that traditional 4WD (transfer case, ,low range) is really just 2WD -- one front, one rear (if both diffs are open).

 

[The Shark]

I live in southwestern Utah. The problem as I see it is when these AWD vehicles get stuck, people behind them on the trail get stuck too. Most times there is no way to get around them or to turn around. I also know a good driver can get some of these vehicles through but the average person who thinks he has "4WD" AWD without a low range transfer case most of the time gets stuck. Personally I think they are tired of rescuing people who shouldn't be there with their vehicle. I live in in a huge off roading area and 5 National Parks. In my county we only have one BLM ranger covering a gigantic area. They can't be everywhere and more and more people are getting hurt and don't have the skills to do what they are doing or to SELF RESCUE. They see car commercials and u tube videos and want to try.

I agree with you and I don't think the NPS is going to be actively policing vehicles in these areas. I think what will happen is if someone gets themselves in trouble being somewhere they shouldn't be then the NPS has some way of recourse and can fine these people. They really are protecting the idiots from themselves by putting a little fear into them.

 

[Robink]

I agree with you and I don't think the NPS is going to be actively policing vehicles in these areas. I think what will happen is if someone gets themselves in trouble being somewhere they shouldn't be then the NPS has some way of recourse and can fine these people. They really are protecting the idiots from themselves by putting a little fear into them.

Good points. I agree it will give them pause!

 

[petegee77]

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[petegee77]

I live in southwestern Utah. The problem as I see it is when these AWD vehicles get stuck, people behind them on the trail get stuck too. Most times there is no way to get around them or to turn around. I also know a good driver can get some of these vehicles through but the average person who thinks he has "4WD" AWD without a low range transfer case most of the time gets stuck. Personally I think they are tired of rescuing people who shouldn't be there with their vehicle. I live in in a huge off roading area and 5 National Parks. In my county we only have one BLM ranger covering a gigantic area. They can't be everywhere and more and more people are getting hurt and don't have the skills to do what they are doing or to SELF RESCUE. They see car commercials and u tube videos and want to try.

Excellent post. You nailed it. Those 4X4 rules are there for a reason.

 

[westcoaster818]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-driving-on-4wd-only-trails/ar-AA1otL3J?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=559f70e7a19642d493c30d37ab2a7573&ei=23

You have a Badlands with psuedo 4 wheel drive. Shouldnt be a prpblem.

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