Bigger engine for BS

[RushMan]

From the article:



Do you know what changes were made for the specific application (use in the Bronco Sport)?



Yes, and we have data to back up the claim. There is no data to support the claim that the 8F35 transmission is not adequately rated for use with the 2.0L EcoBoost engine as installed in the Bronco Sport (or any other Ford model using the 2.0L engine). Again, can you imagine how lawyers would react to a rash of transmission failures if it could be proved Ford installed a transmission not rated for the application?

It may actually happen, but it hasn't yet. Speculation doesn't seem particularly helpful here. Although I will acknowledge anyone considering a power increase via tune for their Badlands might want to think carefully about how the transmission will fare.

I've found no documentation of any changes to the 8F35 specifically made for Bronco Sport applications.
The only documentation that I found shows specifications that the transmission is underrated for this engine.

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[Dude]

https://www.transmissiondigest.com/ford-motor-company-and-the-hat-trick/
"The 8F35 is the brainchild of the collaboration with GM on their GF9 platform. There are changes that are made by specific application. This unit is designed for use in vehicles up to 350 Nm of engine torque "
As stated in the article, the 8F35 is rated to 350 Nm of torque, (258 lb-ft).

2.0L engine produces up to 277 lb-ft of torque.

8F35 torque rating has been discussed on various Ford forums including the Maverick and on various Transmission Forums. Torque (lack of a sufficient rating for the 8F35) is much debated.

Short of getting an answer from Ford’s Transmission Design Team, this is someone’s best guess which I also concur with:

“Sounds like they (Ford) looked at the size, weight and cost and decided that it was a corner they could cut. There will be (is) likely some wiggle room built into the (8F35) transmission's torque rating and likely 99% of the time the 8F35 is perfectly fine.”: that paragraph is opinion only.

Wikipedia has the 8F35 torque rating at 260 lb-ft. (That Wikipedia link is easy to find but I take info on Wikipedia with skepticism).

Btw according to several links there are statements about removing a gears impact on torque rating such as this one: “Just removing a gear will not change the torque rating. It will change how the engine power is delivered to the road.”, again those are easy to find links.

However, another link stated: “(Ford may have): tweak the transmission software to downgraded torque curve.”
Only Ford Engineers know for sure.

It does not appear there are definitive answers on the 8F35 torque rating in the 2.0L (e.g. Badlands) application. Any debate without consulting Ford Engineers will be pointless on that topic.

Side note: at what rpm and driving conditions does the 2.0L hit 277 ft lb and for how long, does the engine control software throttle back to limit torque to the 8F35 transmission ….

 

[Mark S.]

Wikipedia has the 8F35 torque rating at 260 lb-ft.

That is based on the linked article @RushMan posted (see footnote 4 in the Wikipedia post). That article says the transmission was designed for use in vehicles up to 350 Nm, but that there are changes to the design for specific applications. No one other than Ford's engineers know what those design changes are, or whether they increased the torque rating.

The only reliable data we have is in use statistics. I'm unaware of any data suggesting widespread durability issues with this transmission as used in numerous Ford vehicles with the 2.0L EcoBoost.

 

[Dude]

That is based on the linked article @RushMan posted (see footnote 4 in the Wikipedia post). That article says the transmission was designed for use in vehicles up to 350 Nm, but that there are changes to the design for specific applications. No one other than Ford's engineers know what those design changes are, or whether they increased the torque rating.

The only reliable data we have is in use statistics. I'm unaware of any data suggesting widespread durability issues with this transmission as used in numerous Ford vehicles with the 2.0L EcoBoost.

Yes that is what I was saying too - Ford transmission engineers would need to be consulted and when I worked for GM occasionally I would get random calls on technical topics and of course I would have to say “it’s all designed within spec”

there are NHTSA reports on 8F35 transmission issues but those should not apply to most (possibly any) Bronco Sports (reports were applicable to vehicles manufactured prior to mid 2021 I recall)

Bottom line is no one except Ford knows the full 8F35 specifications and another point about statistical durability issues - “at what rpm and driving conditions does the 2.0L hit 277 ft lb and for how long, does the engine control software throttle back to limit torque to the 8F35 transmission ….”

might not be too many people running at the 277 ft lb torque (or anything above the 8F35s design spec) for long enough to cause durability issues.

“Things just have to work. They don’t have to work across all possible conditions.”

 

[RushMan]

Yes that is what I was saying too - Ford transmission engineers would need to be consulted and when I worked for GM occasionally I would get random calls on technical topics and of course I would have to say “it’s all designed within spec”

there are NHTSA reports on 8F35 transmission issues but those should not apply to most (possibly any) Bronco Sports (reports were applicable to vehicles manufactured prior to mid 2021 I recall)

Bottom line is no one except Ford knows the full 8F35 specifications and another point about statistical durability issues - “at what rpm and driving conditions does the 2.0L hit 277 ft lb and for how long, does the engine control software throttle back to limit torque to the 8F35 transmission ….”

might not be too many people running at the 277 ft lb torque (or anything above the 8F35s design spec) for long enough to cause durability issues.

“Things just have to work. They don’t have to work across all possible conditions.”

Max torque at 4500 rpm.
https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-ecoboost-family/ford-2-0l-ecoboost-engine/

 

[Dude]

Max torque at 4500 rpm.
https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-ecoboost-family/ford-2-0l-ecoboost-engine/

Good to know. Now we just need a handful of 2.0L owners willing to run at the rpm for 277 ft lbs torque over a variety of heat, cold and hill climbing grueling conditions to find out when the 8F35 flips out.

Btw … Ford stated this for my ‘22 BL:

2022 Ford Bronco Sport Badlands
Generation: CX430 [2021 .. 2022]
2.0L EcoBoost I-4 with Auto Start-Stop
250HP @ 5,500 RPM, (186.5 kW | 254 PS)
277ft-lbs Torque @ 3,000 RPM,
8-speed 8F35 automatic w/ SelectShift

 

[RushMan]

Good to know. Now we just need a handful of 2.0L owners willing to run at the rpm for 277 ft lbs torque over a variety of heat, cold and hill climbing grueling conditions to find out when the 8F35 flips out.

Btw … Ford stated this for my ‘22 BL:

2022 Ford Bronco Sport Badlands
Generation: CX430 [2021 .. 2022]
2.0L EcoBoost I-4 with Auto Start-Stop
250HP @ 5,500 RPM, (186.5 kW | 254 PS)
277ft-lbs Torque @ 3,000 RPM,
8-speed 8F35 automatic w/ SelectShift

I'd like to know what the failure mode and specific components that fail in the ratings tests, assuming that isn't just a predicted failure rating rather than actual testing.

 

[sajohnson]

Yes that is what I was saying too - Ford transmission engineers would need to be consulted and when I worked for GM occasionally I would get random calls on technical topics and of course I would have to say “it’s all designed within spec”

there are NHTSA reports on 8F35 transmission issues but those should not apply to most (possibly any) Bronco Sports (reports were applicable to vehicles manufactured prior to mid 2021 I recall)

Bottom line is no one except Ford knows the full 8F35 specifications and another point about statistical durability issues - “at what rpm and driving conditions does the 2.0L hit 277 ft lb and for how long, does the engine control software throttle back to limit torque to the 8F35 transmission ….”

might not be too many people running at the 277 ft lb torque (or anything above the 8F35s design spec) for long enough to cause durability issues.

“Things just have to work. They don’t have to work across all possible conditions.”

A good point that has been made in several posts above is that the vast majority of the time, most engines are not producing peak hp or torque.

Most.

The T1N (early model) MB Sprinter with the 5 cylinder turbo has a 5 speed transmission that is typically used in cars and SUVs. It was borderline adequate for the 5 cyl. engine. That was fine for flower delivery vans, but when a class C RV box is put on a cab-chassis it's a different story. Most RVs are operated at or over the GVWR or GCWR. They are often driven during the summer, in the mountains, with long steep grades. Under those conditions the transmission lasts ~100,000 miles, even when well maintained. Some owners change the fluid as frequently as every 20K miles, don't tow, stay at/under the GVWR, and still experience transmission failure around 100K miles.

It is possible that a BS BL could be operated under equivalent conditions (fully loaded, roof rack, 2,000 lb.+ trailer) but less likely. The vast majority of owners have nothing to worry about. Any operation at peak hp/torque will generally be short duration (or the driver will be well into 'triple-digit' speeds).

 

[Dude]

I'd like to know what the failure mode and specific components that fail in the ratings tests, assuming that isn't just a predicted failure rating rather than actual testing.

I haven’t seen any published reports of actual testing of the 8F35 transmission above its design limits. If testing were done by Ford or commissioned by Ford those would almost certainly be confidential and under a non disclosure agreement.

 

[BLUEOVALRACER]

Ford would need the transmission also. The 8F35 is underrated for even the 2.0L torque specs.

Of course i meant the 2.7 Eco Boost and the transmission from the Edge ST!!

 

[Dude]

I'd like to know what the failure mode and specific components that fail in the ratings tests, assuming that isn't just a predicted failure rating rather than actual testing.

FB71 provided good info for the 8F35 transmission in posts at this link (Post #23 and other posts). (Does not answer the question you asked however about failure modes…)

https://www.broncosportforum.com/forum/threads/something-i-feel-i-have-to-clear-up-about-transmission-servicing.10701/

 

[FuryMachine84]

The 2.0 in engines run pretty good, if you mash the gas and the wheels aren't pointing straight you can get into trouble quickly, the 2.0 has some torque steer. I don't really think it needs more power, but a tune could be interesting.

So I'm not the only one who has this happen then, lol!?!
It doesn't seem like torque steer though. It almost feels like the steering binds/sticks or the system is not able to respond quick enough.
I've also noticed at times, I'll let off the throttle(maybe 75٪ or less to 0%) and the engine can take a moment or 2 to before it stops building rpms. So it could also be power is still being sent to the wheels. But I'm not a tech.

 

[Steelbronco]

Ford should have came out of the gate on a dead run with the Bronco Sport showing this little pony meant business. If they put the attached speck version 2.3L in an AWD Bronco Sport then we'd have a baby Stallion!!!

 

[sajohnson]

Ford should have came out of the gate on a dead run with the Bronco Sport showing this little pony meant business. If they put the attached speck version 2.3L in an AWD Bronco Sport then we'd have a baby Stallion!!!

That's about 345 hp and 443 lb-ft of torque -- that'd be a nice boost.

 

[Steelbronco]

That's about 345 hp and 443 lb-ft of torque -- that'd be a nice boost.

Exactly.... you know it'd be bought. Just as long as they did't make it a limited quantity special production.

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