Mark S.

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I posted an oil analysis which shows fuel dilution and a degradation of viscosity and flash point, what more do you want? This is not anecdotal, this is FACTUAL.
One data point vs the millions collected by Ford.

Of course you didn't address the "lifetime" transmission fluid either, that would implode your "argument".
I didn't address it because its not germane to the discussion. But if you insist: I'm not sure where you got your information about the transmission fluid. My owner's manual (pg 279) contains the following:

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID CHECK

The automatic transmission does not have a transmission fluid dipstick.

Have an authorized dealer check and change the transmission fluid at the correct service interval. See Scheduled Maintenance. Your transmission does not consume fluid. However, if the transmission slips, shifts slowly or if you notice a sign of leaking fluid, contact an authorized dealer.

Do not use supplemental transmission fluid additives, treatments or cleaning agents. The use of these materials may affect transmission operation and result in damage to internal transmission components.
Note the part I highlighted. Every Ford dealer in my area offers transmission drain and/or flush services. I bet yours does too.

Again, what does this have to do with engine oil service intervals?

 

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One data point vs the millions collected by Ford.


I didn't address it because its not germane to the discussion. But if you insist: I'm not sure where you got your information about the transmission fluid. My owner's manual (pg 279) contains the following:


Note the part I highlighted. Every Ford dealer in my area offers transmission drain and/or flush services. I bet yours does too.

Again, what does this have to do with engine oil service intervals?
Oh, I'm sorry, Ford does say it's every 150,000 miles for transmission fluid change. I'm going to hold you to that, you know, because the Ford experts know best right? If I find out you changed your transmission fluid prior to 150k I'm going to be pretty disappointed. It's funny that you dump on my non anecdotal data and you keep mentioning this "Ford data" yet you have nothing to show for it. You have no idea what their data is you just keep spouting it off like you have first hand knowledge of it.

OP made a thread to say that they smelled fuel in their oil. I chimed in to say OP is correct and it's a problem with these DI turbocharged engines AND I posted a used oil analysis. You have contributed ZERO, so in essence, you're just an angry troll. Go away already.

Also it has EVERYTHING to do with oil change intervals because you're saying that Ford maintenance intervals are basically written by god himself yet you waiver when it comes to transmission fluid changes and backpedal. Make up your mind.
 

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Oh, I'm sorry, Ford does say it's every 150,000 miles for transmission fluid change. I'm going to hold you to that, you know, because the Ford experts know best right? If I find out you changed your transmission fluid prior to 150k I'm going to be pretty disappointed. It's funny that you dump on my non anecdotal data and you keep mentioning this "Ford data" yet you have nothing to show for it. You have no idea what their data is you just keep spouting it off like you have first hand knowledge of it.

OP made a thread to say that they smelled fuel in their oil. I chimed in to say OP is correct and it's a problem with these DI turbocharged engines AND I posted a used oil analysis. You have contributed ZERO, so in essence, you're just an angry troll. Go away already.

Also it has EVERYTHING to do with oil change intervals because you're saying that Ford maintenance intervals are basically written by god himself yet you waiver when it comes to transmission fluid changes and backpedal. Make up your mind.
Just to be clear:
1668743169507.png


In reality, the Ford DI engines have been around a decade or more. Mark is making the general assumption that Ford has done research and testing on a large sample set to determine what they would recommend for oil changes. Or, there was a standard set that the oil would need to be changed at a specific interval and they tested a fairly large sample of engines to that number and determined the oil was still acceptable but “end of life”.

If there was a big problem with these engines having diluted oil from gasoline and that caused a problem in the internals, there would be a lot of evidence in the form of blown engines during that decade plus of time these have been sold. I don’t know that there is any evidence that there is a particularly high failure rate in these engines from diluted oil. There was a bigger issue of the engine cooling jacket leaking into the cylinders. I can’t remember which 2 cylinders now were the primary culprits, but I want to say 2 & 3. There is a lot of evidence out there showing those failures.

That being said, a particular engine may have more blow-by than others and dilute the oil to a level that would lead to damage. I would think that it would not lead to sludge or deposits, but instead it would be the opposite. So the video guy’s take would be suspect in my mind for that reason, if not for others too. Testing the oil to determine if a particular engine has more blow-by and diluted oil and then making a decision on service interval from that information would seem to be a reasonable thing to do. However, just making a blanket statement that everyone should do shorter service intervals is probably way too general of a statement.
 

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Just to be clear:
1668743169507.png


In reality, the Ford DI engines have been around a decade or more. Mark is making the general assumption that Ford has done research and testing on a large sample set to determine what they would recommend for oil changes. Or, there was a standard set that the oil would need to be changed at a specific interval and they tested a fairly large sample of engines to that number and determined the oil was still acceptable but “end of life”.

If there was a big problem with these engines having diluted oil from gasoline and that caused a problem in the internals, there would be a lot of evidence in the form of blown engines during that decade plus of time these have been sold. I don’t know that there is any evidence that there is a particularly high failure rate in these engines from diluted oil. There was a bigger issue of the engine cooling jacket leaking into the cylinders. I can’t remember which 2 cylinders now were the primary culprits, but I want to say 2 & 3. There is a lot of evidence out there showing those failures.

That being said, a particular engine may have more blow-by than others and dilute the oil to a level that would lead to damage. I would think that it would not lead to sludge or deposits, but instead it would be the opposite. So the video guy’s take would be suspect in my mind for that reason, if not for others too. Testing the oil to determine if a particular engine has more blow-by and diluted oil and then making a decision on service interval from that information would seem to be a reasonable thing to do. However, just making a blanket statement that everyone should do shorter service intervals is probably way too general of a statement.
I think you'll find if you re-read what I wrote that I'm well aware of what "anecdotal" means. My non-anecdotal data would be that of the blackstone labs oil analysis report (FACTS) as opposed to that dude's conjecture regarding Ford's data as it pertains to their service interval recommendations. I'm willing to wager that their service interval recommendations have much less to do with real world driving conditions that MOST owners subject their vehicles to and much more to do with marketing BS that helps them sell vehicles with supposed less required maintenance. As an example, Ford does refer to their transmission fluid as "lifetime" yet they also recommend it being changed at 150,000 miles and "inspected" at 50,000 miles. You're going to tell me that you feel comfortable running trans fluid to 150,000 miles? There isn't even a transmission dipstick so how exactly are you checking your trans fluid and if you bring it to a shop do you really believe they're checking it? Again, marketing BS.

Also, I said people should consider shorter oil change intervals. I also recommended a UOA to find out where their engine is in terms of performance as it pertains to the fluids being used. Not all oil is equal just as not all gasoline is equal and both are going to contribute to fuel dilution. The UOA that I provided makes it pretty clear that fuel dilution is capable of happening in much less than 5k oil change intervals and this has a direct affect on oil viscosity at temp. Flashpoint is also a big deal as it can seriously accelerate carbon buildup and ring failure. Oil is not meant to burn in an engine, when you introduce excess fuel into the oil it does burn in the rings which causes carbon buildup and causes ring failure. This isn't really rocket science. Everyone is entitled to do what they want and quite frankly I couldn't care less if you believe Ford has your best interest in mind with their recommended maintenance intervals. Calling me names because I chose to spend $700 more on shorter oil changes BASED ON EVIDENCE I have from UOA's is just plain ignorant.
 


Rawah652

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Well, this thread has devolved a bit. :crazy:

I generally go with manufacturer recommendations, until seeing evidence to do something different. I previously owned a 2017 Ford Escape, 1.5L engine, and followed the recommended oil change intervals. NEVER again on an ecoboost engine will I wait that long between oil changes. The oil was always in terrible shape after the change (even after I went down to 5K miles), and I experienced the dreaded "shudder" a few times. My driving during that time was definitely more short trips at low speed, compared to the highway/city mix I have now.

I did my first oil change on my Badlands at 1,000 miles (went to full synthetic with the motorcraft filter), and the oil wasn't in bad shape, but already showing some wear. My next will be at 4,000, and we'll see how that looks, especially after throwing some off-roading into the mix. Maybe I'll stretch it out to 5K after that if it's still looking good. I intend to keep this car for a long time, so fresh oil on a regular basis is well worth the extra $40-ish a year I'm probably going to spend doing it. Small price to pay.

Also- if you don't do your own oil changes, it is absolutely worth investing in the tools to do it yourself as the OP stated. With the cost of two oil changes by the dealership, you'll have been able to buy a set of ramps, wrench, socket, drip pan, and funnel (plus the oil) to do it yourself. You don't need high end tools, harbor freight stuff works just fine for this. If you're hand strength is low, then maybe throw in an oil filter tool in there too. The location of this filter makes it easy to get it off by hand (though I did have to *really* work for it to get the factory-tightened one off).
 

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I drive easy, 5,000 mile intervals with the Ford Blend oil seem fine to me.
Never had a ‘shudder’.
I’ve taken a Toyota 2.7 L 4 banger to 528,000 miles on 10,000 mile oil change intervals on Mobile One
Not a turbo tho.
Taken several engines into the 380,000- 400,000 mile range,
Never an engine problem.
I just wore them out, you know,
Compression dropping,
Had a rear main give out.
These Tiny Turbo motors are new to me.
But I will trade up before a 100,000 from now on anyways, prolly about 90,000.
Mainly so I can get a new toy more often.
 

Major Kong

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observations
catch can installed per manufacturers directions
downstream of air/oil separator
still managed to collect small amount of oil post separator
contents displayed strong blow-by odor
distinctly different from crankcase oil
here's my concern
air/oil separator first inline of the two devices pre- PCV
inability to determine amount of oil returned to crankcase by separator
suspect the amount would be greater than the catch can residue
moving on to oil lab testing..........
a test of the catch can contents might be worthwhile
reason for this being air/oil separator returns this oil back to the engine

caveat
the preceding statements are disqualified by lack of mileage
9 months ownership / 640 miles on the odometer
 

Mark S.

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a test of the catch can contents might be worthwhile
reason for this being air/oil separator returns this oil back to the engine
But it becomes a portion of ALL the oil in the sump. The 1.5L enjoys a relatively large five-quart sump, which is a quart more than the last V8 powered car I owned. It takes a lot of particulates to attenuate the lubricity of five quarts of oil. How much? Enough that Ford has set comparatively long service intervals.

I would stick to testing only the oil drained from the sump. That's the only germane data as regards this discussion. Test the catch can for curiosity's sake, but don't let it frighten you into wasting your money & time.
 
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Mark S.

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The oil was always in terrible shape after the change (even after I went down to 5K miles), and I experienced the dreaded "shudder" a few times. My driving during that time was definitely more short trips at low speed, compared to the highway/city mix I have now.
Was this based on lab testing, or your observation? What is the dreaded "shudder," and how does oil life effect it?

Also- if you don't do your own oil changes, it is absolutely worth investing in the tools to do it yourself as the OP stated. With the cost of two oil changes by the dealership, you'll have been able to buy a set of ramps, wrench, socket, drip pan, and funnel (plus the oil) to do it yourself. You don't need high end tools, harbor freight stuff works just fine for this. If you're hand strength is low, then maybe throw in an oil filter tool in there too. The location of this filter makes it easy to get it off by hand (though I did have to *really* work for it to get the factory-tightened one off).
Agreed. In addition, taking a look at the underside of your vehicle on occasion is a good thing, especially if you take your car offroad and/or live in an area that uses salt for road maintenance during the winter months. Off-road driving can put nicks in anti-corrosion coatings allowing salt to attack the metal beneath. If you spot this kind of damage in time you can effect repairs to the coatings before it's too late.
 


PaulOinMA

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... But I will trade up before a 100,000 from now on anyways, prolly about 90,000. Mainly so I can get a new toy more often.
Same here. 100k based on our current annual driving is when we will be moving on to new vehicles.

Sold my wife's '12 FE Hybrid Limited in July at 99,700. Had it almost 11 years.

My ''14 FE Ti will be sold as soon as my wife's '23 BS BL arrives. Will just be under 100k, too.

100k is time for us to sell or decide to put money into vehicles to keep longer. Would rather put money towards a new, updated vehicle.
 

Mark S.

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Oh, I'm sorry, Ford does say it's every 150,000 miles for transmission fluid change. I'm going to hold you to that, you know, because the Ford experts know best right?
If you have evidence that this interval is inappropriate or inadequate please share it.

If I find out you changed your transmission fluid prior to 150k I'm going to be pretty disappointed.
Ominous. Are you watching me? :bandit:

It's funny that you dump on my non anecdotal data and you keep mentioning this "Ford data" yet you have nothing to show for it. You have no idea what their data is you just keep spouting it off like you have first hand knowledge of it.
I've not dumped on your data. On the contrary, I've mentioned in almost every post on this thread that if your testing shows a need for shorter service intervals then you should use a shorter interval. I simply don't think YOUR data applies to EVERYONE.

You can read about Ford's testing program here. Ford is under no obligation to share proprietary data about their products, and I don't need to see it anyway. I know there are literally MILLIONS of these engines operating around the world, and if there were widespread problems implicating Ford's recommended oil service interval we would know about them.

Also it has EVERYTHING to do with oil change intervals because you're saying that Ford maintenance intervals are basically written by god himself yet you waiver when it comes to transmission fluid changes and backpedal. Make up your mind.
They're not written by God, but they are based on a massive trove of data collected by the manufacturer. In what way have I wavered regarding transmission fluid changes?

You have contributed ZERO, so in essence, you're just an angry troll. Go away already.
Again, on the contrary. One of us is responding to the other's arguments and claims while the other has gotten personal. In various places throughout this thread you have made specific claims about me personally, such as:
  • I'm not actually reading or watching the content you posted (not true).
  • That I selectively ignore parts of what you post (again, not true).
  • I don't understand how engines work (but I do try, honest).
  • I suffer from a mental disorder (that's possible, I'll give you that).
  • That I'm an angry troll.
In discussions like this I try very hard to respond only to people's arguments and avoid personal attacks, mainly because they rarely add anything to understanding. Some feel that disagreement equals a personal attack. I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I don't know you personally, so I can assure you my disagreement with your arguments has nothing to do with you personally. I simply think your recommendation that everyone change their oil at 3K intervals is wrong. Changing your oil before it's necessary is wasteful in both money and time, and it's bad for the environment.
 
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Meanderthal

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I think you'll find if you re-read what I wrote that I'm well aware of what "anecdotal" means. My non-anecdotal data would be that of the blackstone labs oil analysis report (FACTS) as opposed to that dude's conjecture regarding Ford's data as it pertains to their service interval recommendations.
In this case “anecdotal” is the presentation of one oil analysis. Yes, it is factual but an extremely limited sample size, thus making it anecdotal. That is not to say that there aren’t more examples of this out there, but you have only presented the one.
 

Major Kong

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But it becomes a portion of ALL the oil in the sump.
this would be the case
but in contrast
years ago straight to atmosphere (and I'm good with that)
recent times recycled as combustibles by means of PCV
but now returning back to case as a contaminant
not a fan of "dilution is the solution"
"sans contaminant" fan
hunch separator function was intended to assist anti-valve fouling
less oil laden vapors to deal with
but what to do with the carbon/fuel/oil residue?
send it back to where it came from?
unacceptable
could be better dealt with
IMO
 

Mark S.

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this would be the case
but in contrast
years ago straight to atmosphere (and I'm good with that)
recent times recycled as combustibles by means of PCV
but now returning back to case as a contaminant
not a fan of "dilution is the solution"
"sans contaminant" fan
hunch separator function was intended to assist anti-valve fouling
less oil laden vapors to deal with
but what to do with the carbon/fuel/oil residue?
send it back to where it came from?
unacceptable
could be better dealt with
IMO
It doesn't all go back to the sump; the vapors go back to the cylinder to be burned off.

Be that as it may, I get that the thought of having "contaminants" in your engine oil sounds bad, and contaminated oil—at any dilution—is objectively "worse" for your engine than clean oil. But the reality is the only time your engine has COMPLETELY clean oil in it is the first time oil is added at the factory. As soon as you run the engine it will contain some level of contaminants. When you change the oil you never get out ALL of the old oil, so the "fresh" oil will have some level of contamination. The question is how much contamination is necessary to significantly impact lubricity and engine operation/longevity?

I'll stick with the recommendation I made to FakeCowboy (they didn't share their real name): if oil analysis shows enough contamination to cause concern following the recommended service interval then simply go to a shorter service interval—problem solved.

 

 
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