This surprised me today.

[sajohnson]

So, how did this thread turn from a dealer charging almost the same sticker price for a used BS to a sound thread?

Largest thread hijack I've seen here to date.

I blame peer pressure!

Of course you're correct. Maybe the posts about audio should be a separate thread.

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[CableXJ]

So, how did this thread turn from a dealer charging almost the same sticker price for a used BS to a sound thread?

Largest thread hijack I've seen here to date.

Two words: Pedal Commander. ?

 

[wireman]

I'm very disgusted to hear Ford did that.

There are far too many examples of this kind of weaselly, gotcha behavior. Like many people, my wife and I benefit from a rising stock market, but I'd be happy to give up some of those gains if we could go back to when corporations (generally) treated people right.

One example -- decades ago, we bought a large thru-wall A/C unit from Lowe's. It was an 'as-is' (but new) Whirlpool. It was missing the grill, filter, and a couple knobs, but it was $300 vs $650 in the box. I figured I'd buy the missing parts and still be way ahead. When I called Whirlpool, the CSR refused to let me pay! I told her it was sold as-is, and she said, "It's new to you and it should have all of the parts." Everything was express shipped at no cost.

Contrast that with the experience I just had with "Hitchcock Wide Shoes" earlier today. I've been a customer for decades. I just received a pair of boots I pre-ordered a couple months ago. They were expensive but they sounded very good and are made in America (PA). Unfortunately, they did not come with insoles(!); they are defective; and they are too narrow -- even though Hitchcock asks for foot measurements (which I provided) and mfr/style/size of a shoe that fits (also provided). They are insisting that *I* pay for the return shipping! In the past, many companies offered free shipping both ways, no questions asked. At a minimum, if the customer was not at fault, they did not pay (that is/was Amazon's policy).

Just trying to give Nationwide money for the BS BL insurance yesterday was like pulling teeth!

Slapping some cheap speakers into a vehicle and paying a big name audio equipment mfr to put their name on it may boost the bottom line in the short-term -- but in the long-term it will backfire. People get tired of being cheated, mislead, and lied to.
[/QUOTE
Hard to tell how much input and effort B&O actually put into the design and engineering of the sound system. I'm skeptical. I assume Ford paid them for the naming rights and everyone's happy, except some customers.

I'm not impressed with it, but I'm coming from a 2020 Audi Q3 that had a B&O 3D sound system with 680 watts and 15 speakers with a 16 channel amplifier. Hard to top it for sure. Did they or Audi design it, who knows.

 

[sajohnson]

Hard to tell how much input and effort B&O actually put into the design and engineering of the sound system. I'm skeptical. I assume Ford paid them for the naming rights and everyone's happy, except some customers.

I'm not impressed with it, but I'm coming from a 2020 Audi Q3 that had a B&O 3D sound system with 680 watts and 15 speakers with a 16 channel amplifier. Hard to top it for sure. Did they or Audi design it, who knows.

[I hope I got your quote correct -- it was lumped in with my previous post.]

Good point about the designer of these name brand systems being unknown. I never really had any reason to look into it because I always installed the audio equipment in my vehicles (or made do with the stock systems as I got older).

Also, prior to the BS BL, none of the vehicles I bought even had a high-end audio option. My 2002 WRX had one (1) audio system option -- a 'subwoofer' that got lukewarm reviews. I passed on it. The auto mfrs make it sound as if the audio company they partner with -- Bose; Infinity; B&O; Polk; Bowers & Wilkins; Mark Levinson, etc. -- has engineers collaborating with their design teams, but who knows?

As you said, it could be that many/most auto mfrs just pay for the audiophile company's name.

In my post that you quoted, I was reacting to Meanderthal's post (#17):

"This is how “bad” the BS B&O system is. People spend the money for it (me included) and then realize how poorly it actually sounds. Then when the hardware is exposed as the cheapest possible speaker Ford could find and you discover that B&O did not make any of the hardware but just “tuned” the system, then the house of cards that is upgraded factory audio comes crumbling down."

Maybe others have a different opinion., but Meanderthal's post is very concerning.

I haven't heard the B&O system, let alone seen the speakers Ford uses. Hopefully, most people are satisfied, because at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Whether it truly is a decent system, or the power of professional marketing convinces people it is, the bottom line is the same.

 

[Jrl]

[I hope I got your quote correct -- it was lumped in with my previous post.]

Good point about the designer of these name brand systems being unknown. I never really had any reason to look into it because I always installed the audio equipment in my vehicles (or made do with the stock systems as I got older).

Also, prior to the BS BL, none of the vehicles I bought even had a high-end audio option. My 2002 WRX had one (1) audio system option -- a 'subwoofer' that got lukewarm reviews. I passed on it. The auto mfrs make it sound as if the audio company they partner with -- Bose; Infinity; B&O; Polk; Bowers & Wilkins; Mark Levinson, etc. -- has engineers collaborating with their design teams, but who knows?

As you said, it could be that many/most auto mfrs just pay for the audiophile company's name.

In my post that you quoted, I was reacting to Meanderthal's post (#17):

"This is how “bad” the BS B&O system is. People spend the money for it (me included) and then realize how poorly it actually sounds. Then when the hardware is exposed as the cheapest possible speaker Ford could find and you discover that B&O did not make any of the hardware but just “tuned” the system, then the house of cards that is upgraded factory audio comes crumbling down."

Maybe others have a different opinion., but Meanderthal's post is very concerning.

I haven't heard the B&O system, let alone seen the speakers Ford uses. Hopefully, most people are satisfied, because at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Whether it truly is a decent system, or the power of professional marketing convinces people it is, the bottom line is the same.

I have a 21 First Edition built in December of 2020 my B&O system sounds absolutely great , then on the other hand my sons 2023 2 door wildtrak says it is not so good , sounds like cheap speakers . I don’t get it , did they change something ????

 

[sajohnson]

I have a 21 First Edition built in December of 2020 my B&O system sounds absolutely great , then on the other hand my sons 2023 2 door wildtrak says it is not so good , sounds like cheap speakers . I don’t get it , did they change something ????

[EDIT: I misread JRL's post. This reply was written thinking the Bronco had the better sound]:

Nice Bronco!

One difference I can think of is that the Bronco is larger -- so depending on how it's designed, there may be room for more/larger speakers.

Of course, smaller speakers can handle all but the bottom ~3 octaves. You've probably seen "sub/sat" home systems with a sub and relatively small 2-way satellite speakers. Any additional space in the Bronco could be used for a bigger subwoofer.

Another possibility is that Ford may use better speakers in the Bronco, and/or their placement may be better.

Then there is the default EQ -- how the system is tuned. I'd expect it to be the same in the Bronco and BS, but you never know.

 

[Mark S.]

then on the other hand my sons 2023 2 door wildtrak says it is not so good , sounds like cheap speakers . I don’t get it , did they change something ????

If I'm not mistaken, the doors on the full-sized Bronco are meant to be removeable, so you can't install speakers in them. The main issue with the sound in the full-sized Bronco is the same problem with Jeeps: speaker placement. The space available isn't conducive to good sound.

 

[Jrl]

If I'm not mistaken, the doors on the full-sized Bronco are meant to be removeable, so you can't install speakers in them. The main issue with the sound in the full-sized Bronco is the same problem with Jeeps: speaker placement. The space available isn't conducive to good sound.

Mark as usual your estimate is 100% on the money .Da Doors,

 

[sajohnson]

Mark as usual your estimate is 100% on the money .Da Doors,

I just re-read your post (#35) and realized I misunderstood it. For some reason I switched it and thought you were saying the system in the Bronco was better. My mistake.

 

[BLUEOVALRACER]

To me, it doesn’t sound that much greater than a stock system. I had a 21 BigBend with regular system an now have a 23 OBX with the B & O system.

Yeah IMO the stock system in my Big Bend sounds pretty good.

 

[sajohnson]

Yeah IMO the stock system in my Big Bend sounds pretty good.

Your comment and JAD's (quoted by you) raise two important points;

1) Audio quality is incredibly subjective. What sounds decent to you and me might be mediocre to some other people. IRC, just in this thread there are a wide range of opinions -- all valid.

2) The most accurate comparison of (home) speakers or complete systems is to set them up next to each other in the same room, balance the volume/spl, have tone controls/EQ set flat, and do an "A/B/X" listening test.

It's impossible to do a thorough comparison of speakers/components when they are in different rooms/vehicles (different acoustics); unequal spl (louder sounds better); different EQ settings; and/or a significant amount of time has elapsed between listening sessions.

Needless to say, if one system is clearly better than another, then much of the above doesn't apply, but for more subtle differences it does.

To be honest, I haven't listened to the system in the Badlands much. I'll have to do a listening test.

 

[Mark S.]

It's impossible to do a thorough comparison of speakers/components when they are in different rooms/vehicles (different acoustics); unequal spl (louder sounds better); different EQ settings;

It's been shown in many times that if everything is exactly the same except volume that most people will say the higher volume system sounds better.

I'll add another twist: a given audio system will sound better for one kind of music than another. You may like the way your car stereo sounds for jazz, but hate it for rock. Sound quality is extremely subjective.

 

[Meanderthal]

[I hope I got your quote correct -- it was lumped in with my previous post.]

Good point about the designer of these name brand systems being unknown. I never really had any reason to look into it because I always installed the audio equipment in my vehicles (or made do with the stock systems as I got older).

Also, prior to the BS BL, none of the vehicles I bought even had a high-end audio option. My 2002 WRX had one (1) audio system option -- a 'subwoofer' that got lukewarm reviews. I passed on it. The auto mfrs make it sound as if the audio company they partner with -- Bose; Infinity; B&O; Polk; Bowers & Wilkins; Mark Levinson, etc. -- has engineers collaborating with their design teams, but who knows?

As you said, it could be that many/most auto mfrs just pay for the audiophile company's name.

In my post that you quoted, I was reacting to Meanderthal's post (#17):

"This is how “bad” the BS B&O system is. People spend the money for it (me included) and then realize how poorly it actually sounds. Then when the hardware is exposed as the cheapest possible speaker Ford could find and you discover that B&O did not make any of the hardware but just “tuned” the system, then the house of cards that is upgraded factory audio comes crumbling down."

Maybe others have a different opinion., but Meanderthal's post is very concerning.

I haven't heard the B&O system, let alone seen the speakers Ford uses. Hopefully, most people are satisfied, because at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Whether it truly is a decent system, or the power of professional marketing convinces people it is, the bottom line is the same.

Just to make some of the evidence of how poor the hardware in the B&O system is available here, I am linking to my post showing the door speakers in the B&O system. If you are someone that didn’t buy the B&O system, all 4 of your door speakers are the same as the rear door speakers in the B&O.

Quality of sound from any stereo system is very subjective. What sounds good to one person may sound horrible to someone else. Quality of materials and construction however are not subjective. In this case, Ford did not choose higher quality materials or construction while charging a premium price.

 

[sajohnson]

Just to make some of the evidence of how poor the hardware in the B&O system is available here, I am linking to my post showing the door speakers in the B&O system. If you are someone that didn’t buy the B&O system, all 4 of your door speakers are the same as the rear door speakers in the B&O.

Quality of sound from any stereo system is very subjective. What sounds good to one person may sound horrible to someone else. Quality of materials and construction however are not subjective. In this case, Ford did not choose higher quality materials or construction while charging a premium price.

Ouch. That's embarrassing (for Ford).

This is a good example of what I've referred to in other threads -- corporations (not just Ford) treating their customers like suckers to be taken advantage of. Nothing wrong with making a healthy profit, but buyers should be made aware of what they are getting for their money.

That said, those OE speakers do look cheap, and I can't imagine they sound very good when fed a decent amount of power, but something to keep in mind is that the physical size of a magnet is not necessarily an indicator of audio quality. Generally speaking, a larger magnet and voice coil can dissipate more heat, so it can handle more power -- but power handling is just one factor. Others are type of magnet material; voice coil design -- type of wire, size of gap; cone material, etc. We've all heard loud but 'muddy' (not musical) bass. Plenty of power, but no subtlety.

Another important factor is sensitivity. Quote:

"Speakers range in efficiency or sensitivity from about 85 dB (very inefficient) up to 105 dB (very efficient). To compare, a speaker with an 85 dB efficiency rating takes twice the amplifier power to reach the same volume as a speaker with 88 dB efficiency. Similarly, a speaker with an 88 dB efficiency rating requires ten times more power than a speaker with a 98 dB efficiency rating to play at the same volume.

If you're starting with a 100 watt/channel receiver, you would need 1000 watts of power to double the perceived volume level."
https://www.lifewire.com/amp-power-speaker-efficiency-3135077

Another way of saying that is 'a 3db increase in spl requires DOUBLE the amplifier power.' It's much less expensive to start with more sensitive speakers.

 

[Meanderthal]

Ouch. That's embarrassing (for Ford).

This is a good example of what I've referred to in other threads -- corporations (not just Ford) treating their customers like suckers to be taken advantage of. Nothing wrong with making a healthy profit, but buyers should be made aware of what they are getting for their money.

That said, those OE speakers do look cheap, and I can't imagine they sound very good when fed a decent amount of power, but something to keep in mind is that the physical size of a magnet is not necessarily an indicator of audio quality. Generally speaking, a larger magnet and voice coil can dissipate more heat, so it can handle more power -- but power handling is just one factor. Others are type of magnet material; voice coil design -- type of wire, size of gap; cone material, etc. We've all heard loud but 'muddy' (not musical) bass. Plenty of power, but no subtlety.

Another important factor is sensitivity. Quote:

"Speakers range in efficiency or sensitivity from about 85 dB (very inefficient) up to 105 dB (very efficient). To compare, a speaker with an 85 dB efficiency rating takes twice the amplifier power to reach the same volume as a speaker with 88 dB efficiency. Similarly, a speaker with an 88 dB efficiency rating requires ten times more power than a speaker with a 98 dB efficiency rating to play at the same volume.

If you're starting with a 100 watt/channel receiver, you would need 1000 watts of power to double the perceived volume level."
https://www.lifewire.com/amp-power-speaker-efficiency-3135077

Another way of saying that is 'a 3db increase in spl requires DOUBLE the amplifier power.' It's much less expensive to start with more sensitive speakers.

Believe me, the small magnets are just the start of the quality materials issues. The cone has no structural integrity and the surround is similarly lacking. Volume is definitely better now but so is quality when you turn it up over approximately 12.

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