Transmission oil life question...

[Bucko]

Based on what data? Presumably, Ford bases its recommendations of all the data it collects from the millions of test miles driven during vehicle development. Do you have any evidence that Ford's recommendations are wrong? Some suggest that Ford sets its service intervals based on planned failure to encourage new car purchasing, but I haven't seen any evidence to back up such claims.




These are the common arguments for increased service intervals: If changes at 150K are good then changes at 75K (or 60K, or 30K) must be better! What these arguments don't account for is the danger of mistakes made during the servicing process and the negative impact on the environment.

In WWII the brits commissioned C.H. Waddington—a biologist, paleontologist, geneticist, and embryologist of all things—to study (among other things) the data regarding maintenance intervals for combat aircraft. He found that the overwhelming majority of unscheduled repairs occurred in the first 20 hours of operation following scheduled maintenance. He the concluded that the pattern of unscheduled repairs—dubbed “the Waddington effect”— demonstrated that the scheduled 50-hour maintenance interval was actually doing more harm than good. He recommended increasing the interval, and eliminating maintenance tasks that had no demonstrable benefit.

This research still informs designers and engineers who test and develop recommended maintenance intervals for modern mechanical equipment. These recommendations are also informed by the reality of humanity's impact on our environment.

To me, unnecessary fluid replacement increases the possibility of creating a maintenance problem where none previously existed, and negatively impacts the environment. Throw into the mix that by the time the average owner gets to 150K miles they're 7-10 years into ownership, and the vehicle is worth so little at that point most will be traded off anyway.

This.

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[CrashBend]

Hi all,

I was looking for a maintenance schedule for the essential fluids on the Bronco Sport, I found one on the forum but it was from Ford Canada. All the mileages listed were in kilometers and it said to change trans fluid at 80,000 Km, which translates to almost 50,000 miles (49,709 actually). I thought the trans oil life was good for 100,000 miles, maybe not, I had mine changed at 60,000 miles thinking I'd be ahead of the game since it is driven a lot, also no transmission oil filter is used.

50,000 sounds good, especially if the transmission does not have a filter.

 

[sajohnson]

One thing that makes little sense is that all mfrs have a fixed mileage interval for replacing the air filter.

A filter can get clogged up very quickly in seriously dusty conditions (e.g. Burning Man) or it can look almost new after tens of thousands of miles. My practice is to see if light will pass through it -- ideally comparing the existing filter with a new one.

Of course the best way to determine when a filter needs to be changed is pressure differential. A cheap as sensors are these days I'm surprised some mfrs do not do that.

 

[Devil6]

This.

Ok, can you show me how a 202x Bronco is similar to a 1944 British bomber/ fighter air plane? If there are any similarities I will consider this theory.

But, we aren’t under war time conditions, we aren’t pushing our machines to the limit of their performance capabilities and, understanding, theories, engineering, design, manufacturing, and maintenance techniques are generations more mature than times and machines Waddington lived in and studied.

While my 20 year old British motorcycle is different from a similar period Japanese bike, it’s far closer than anything Waddington studied compared to today’s machines.

Any competent home mechanic can safely do preventative maintenance without fear of causing problems.

 

[Mark S.]

The ideas generated by Waddington's study are valid no matter the technology involved. They still inform maintenance management and schedules even today. Google "predictive maintenance" for more information on the topic.

 

[Devil6]

The ideas generated by Waddington's study are valid no matter the technology involved. They still inform maintenance management and schedules even today. Google "predictive maintenance" for more information on the topic.

What you are saying is that ford has engineered failure into it’s designs. That can be predicted.

You beat Ford’s predicted failures by doing preventative maintenance.

 

[Mark S.]

What you are saying is that ford has engineered failure into it’s designs. That can be predicted.

Nope, that's not it all. Read the literature on predictive maintenance. It's quite interesting.

 

[Devil6]

Nope, that's not it all. Read the literature on predictive maintenance. It's quite interesting.

Nobody here is managing a fleet of Bronco Sports, they have one or two.

How do you explain this? If Ford tells you the fluid is good for 100,000 miles but the system cooks the oil and begins failing in 80,000, what do you call that?

The maintenance required for predicted maintenance is then what, 70,000. But you, Joe average, how do you know that? It’s not like Ford is telling you the part will fail at 80,000.

That meansFord has engineered a failure into your vehicle. Since you don’t know, the only way to protect yourself is to do preventative maintenance every 25,000 miles.

 

[Mark S.]

Nobody here is managing a fleet of Bronco Sports, they have one or two.

How do you explain this? If Ford tells you the fluid is good for 100,000 miles but the system cooks the oil and begins failing in 80,000, what do you call that?

The maintenance required for predicted maintenance is then what, 70,000. But you, Joe average, how do you know that? It’s not like Ford is telling you the part will fail at 80,000.

That meansFord has engineered a failure into your vehicle. Since you don’t know, the only way to protect yourself is to do preventative maintenance every 25,000 miles.

I don’t know what fleet management has to do with this discussion. Where are you getting the data for the claims you’re making? Ford collects literally millions of hours of operating data for its recommendations. Either you trust it to provide data-based recommendations that will keep your vehicle running properly or you don’t. If you don’t trust Ford then no amount of data or logical argument will change your mind.

To recap: Ford recommends transmission fluid changes at 150K or on condition. That means you have the fluid periodically checked (as per the manual) and replace it if necessary. This avoids the risks associated with performing unnecessary maintenance while ensuring the transmission fluid is serviceable.

 

[Glamdring70]

If you think Ford is pulling numbers out of their butt, how is guessing another number any different in methodology? "Ford says 100,000? OK, then I should do 75k!" Why not 20k? Why not 10k? By all means, keep wrenching on those bolts and seals. Then for sure you'll need to beat the recommended intervals by a safe margin.

 

[Ksnau]

My experience with this platform with escapes, focuses and broncos sports. I would do the transmission every 50k the PTU every 30k that one's one of the big weak points. They just don't have enough volume. Even the badlands with the heat exchanger. And with the rear diff I would do that at least every 50. And if you have a badlands I would say do it at 30 and then feel it out from there but at least every 50 and a lot of this is also going to depend on how hard you drive it but I would say for the transmission PTU and rear diff minimum no matter what every 50,000 miles.

Ford is going to have bull crap about lifetime fluids and stuff. That's that's bull crap. And that's already been proven wrong. Don't listen to that. Fluid breaks down it overheats it cokes up and metal built up in the fluid. They will break and they will be expensive to repair.

Out of all the vehicles I've owned I've never had to replace an engine transmission. A differential a transfer case. A PTU nothing but I rarely drive my cars hard and I always maintain them and usually do it more than the recommended. 5000 is the most I'll go on an oil change. Even if the oil doesn't break down at that point, it's still going to have metal bits and in other crap in it that needs to get out of there. I would never do a 7500 mile oil change, let alone at 10,000 my oil change and the same thing goes for the other ones. Highly recommend doing it more than Ford recommends.

 

[Devil6]

I don’t know what fleet management has to do with this discussion. Where are you getting the data for the claims you’re making? Ford collects literally millions of hours of operating data for its recommendations. Either you trust it to provide data-based recommendations that will keep your vehicle running properly or you don’t. If you don’t trust Ford then no amount of data or logical argument will change your mind.

To recap: Ford recommends transmission fluid changes at 150K or on condition. That means you have the fluid periodically checked (as per the manual) and replace it if necessary. This avoids the risks associated with performing unnecessary maintenance while ensuring the transmission fluid is serviceable.

Are you serious? Your whole argument is a theory on how to improve operational readiness of a fleet (of British (unreliable) aircraft) under wartime conditions. Now you are saying your position has nothing to do with a fleet. If you want me to take you seriously, you need to take a serious position.

I agree with you, if Ford says that the oil/ fluid for the transmission, transfer case/ TPU, differentials can last 150,000 miles then the oil/ fluid can last for that long. I think I understand how Ford came to those conclusions.

But, in real operations, those oils/ fluids do not last 150,000 miles if they are overloaded or contaminated. If overloading and/ or contamination happens your component will fail. Overloading is when the oil/ fluid heats up past its ability to do it’s job and breaks down. It is no longer an effective lubricant at that point.

Ford gives the consumer absolutely no way of knowing if they have overloaded their oil/ fluid. There is no temperature reading or gauge.

Ford doesn’t publish failure rates for any of these items but, the internet is full of people stuck with the cost of repairs due to failed items because they did not know they needed replace their oil/ fluid.

Ford has given consumers fill and drain plugs on our vehicles. They didn’t do it for us though, they did it for actual fleet maintenance because generally, the same transmissions, transfer cases/ TPUs, and differentials are sold to state and cities in their emergency and service vehicles. These are vehicles that get driven hard, just like combat aircraft. These fleet managers were having problems because these components were failing early, well before 150,000 miles and there was no way for them to know when to do it or to do an actual service. If the vehicle was under warranty Ford paid for this. Ford fixed by adding a warning that told the driver/ fleet manager that the transmission and or other component had been overloaded and then fill and drain holes to change out the damaged oil/ fluid. Since these components are similar to ours we get them too minus the warnings. We can do the service, we just don’t know if we need to at 30,000 miles for example.

Since we don’t know the component failure rate or if the oil/ fluid has been overloaded or contaminated, the only thing we can do is change the oil/ fluid at -30,000 miles.

You can drive yours to 150,000 miles and then change your oils/ fluids. Good luck. You will be in the minority if you don’t have some sort of transmission, transfer case/ TPU, or differential problems at that point. I recommend you sell it to someone else so that they deal with the problems you caused. That’s a win for you.

For me, I intend to keep this vehicle for longer than the average six years and 150,000 miles. I will change oils/ fluids every -30,000.

I’m glad that I only have one vehicle, that Ford isn’t British owned, that my vehicle isn’t in combat or providing a state or municipal service, that this is a modern vehicle, and that these components have fill and drain holes to do preventative maintenance to avoid know failures.

If you don’t understand these things there is nothing else to say to you.

 

[roboto65]

This should hopefully settle it

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Solves when should I change my fluids.

 

[RSH]

This is from the 2021 BS owners manual

Other Maintenance Items4​
Every 20,000 mi (32,000 km)	Replace the cabin air filter.
Every 30,000 mi (48,000 km)	Replace the engine air filter.
Every 100,000 mi (160,000 km)	Replace the spark plugs.
Inspect the accessory drive belt(s).5
Every 150,000 mi (240,000 km)	Change the automatic transmission fluid.
Replace the accessory drive belt(s).6
At 200,000 mi (322,000 km)	Change the engine coolant.7

4Perform these maintenance items within 3,000 mi (4,800 km) of the last engine oil and filter change. Do not exceed the designated distance for the interval.
5After initial inspection, inspect every other oil change until replaced.
6If not replaced within the last 100,000 mi (160,000 km).
7Initial replacement at 10 years or 200,000 mi (322,000 km), then every five years or 100,000 mi (160,000 km).

If the vehicle is used in exreme conditions the the service interval are shorter

Towing a Trailer or Using a Car-top Carrier​
As required	Change engine oil and filter as indicated by the information display and perform services listed in the Normal Scheduled Maintenance chart.
Inspect frequently, service as required	Inspect rear axle and U-joints.
Every 30,000 mi (48,000 km)	Change automatic transmission fluid.
Every 60,000 mi (96,000 km)	Replace spark plugs.

Extensive Idling or Low-speed Driving for Long Distances, as in Heavy Commercial Use (Such as Delivery, Taxi, Patrol Car or Livery) Short Trips that do not allow the engine to get to operating temperature causing fuel dilution and an increase of the engine oil level​
As required	Change engine oil and filter as indicated by the information display and perform services listed in the Normal Scheduled Maintenance chart.
Inspect frequently, service as required	Replace cabin air filter.1
Replace engine air filter.
Every 30,000 mi (48,000 km)	Change automatic transmission fluid.
Every 60,000 mi (96,000 km)	Replace spark plugs.

1 This is an optional feature.

Operating in Dusty or Sandy Conditions (Such as Unpaved or Dusty Roads)​
Inspect frequently, service as required	Replace cabin air filter.1
Replace engine air filter.
Every 5,000 mi (8,000 km)	Inspect the wheels and related components for abnormal noise, wear, looseness or drag.
Rotate tires, inspect tires for wear and measure tread depth.
Every 5,000 mi (8,000 km) or six months	Change engine oil and filter.
Perform multi-point inspection.
Every 30,000 mi (48,000 km)	Change automatic transmission fluid.

1 This is an optional feature.

Exclusive Use of E85 (Flex Fuel Vehicles Only)​
Every oil change	If ran exclusively on E85, fill the fuel tank full with regular unleaded fuel.

 

[Wazzat]

Based on what data? Presumably, Ford bases its recommendations of all the data it collects from the millions of test miles driven during vehicle development. Do you have any evidence that Ford's recommendations are wrong? Some suggest that Ford sets its service intervals based on planned failure to encourage new car purchasing, but I haven't seen any evidence to back up such claims.




These are the common arguments for increased service intervals: If changes at 150K are good then changes at 75K (or 60K, or 30K) must be better! What these arguments don't account for is the danger of mistakes made during the servicing process and the negative impact on the environment.

In WWII the brits commissioned C.H. Waddington—a biologist, paleontologist, geneticist, and embryologist of all things—to study (among other things) the data regarding maintenance intervals for combat aircraft. He found that the overwhelming majority of unscheduled repairs occurred in the first 20 hours of operation following scheduled maintenance. He the concluded that the pattern of unscheduled repairs—dubbed “the Waddington effect”— demonstrated that the scheduled 50-hour maintenance interval was actually doing more harm than good. He recommended increasing the interval, and eliminating maintenance tasks that had no demonstrable benefit.

This research still informs designers and engineers who test and develop recommended maintenance intervals for modern mechanical equipment. These recommendations are also informed by the reality of humanity's impact on our environment.

To me, unnecessary fluid replacement increases the possibility of creating a maintenance problem where none previously existed, and negatively impacts the environment. Throw into the mix that by the time the average owner gets to 150K miles they're 7-10 years into ownership, and the vehicle is worth so little at that point most will be traded off anyway.

Ford bases the owners manual on "dollars per year" cost of ownership, just like all the other manufacturers. Some customers, companies, put this on a spread sheet every year, and try to beat each other out. Sorry, I'm old school, fluids and filters can be changed as often as you would like to. I love the fresh clean feeling of a full synthetic oil change, a Motorcraft oil filter. and go ahead and throw that new engine filter and cabin filter in there while you're at it. Wipers front and rear? Well I'm already here! Last car I'll ever own - taking care of it!!!

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