California to End Sale of Gas Powered Cars by 2035

Jomo

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So the environment is not a problem and certainly not your problem. All fake news. If that is your stance, there is no argument.

Nevertheless, even in Texas, a customer pays a whole lot more than raw power costs for power at their door. I am saving $1,500 a year from solar that cost me $4,500 to install myself. Freemarket for me says that my lowest cost is to install solar. Many are coming to a similar conclusion.
 

essentialemployee

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So the environment is not a problem and certainly not your problem. All fake news. If that is your stance, there is no argument.

Nevertheless, even in Texas, a customer pays a whole lot more than raw power costs for power at their door. I am saving $1,500 a year from solar that cost me $4,500 to install myself. Freemarket for me says that my lowest cost is to install solar. Many are coming to a similar conclusion.
For many people including myself, solar is a lower cost. In a free market we are able to find and choose the best option. I’m referring to government bans that force certain decisions. Let supply and demand sets price and make your decision. The government shouldn’t impose an artificial price by banning and taxing and controlling the economy.

No the environment is not a problem. We are not evil. Believe that lie if you want to but understand just as you can voice your approval of Elon Musk and Bill Gates calling us a cancer to the environment, I too can voice my disapproval. Call it a stance or argument whatever you want. The fact that California is leading the green agenda is because people believe there is no argument, just real facts from billionaires that is not to be questioned because that would be selfish.
 

chaseAbronco

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Phew trying to make sense of this thread - yes supply and demand can help us make decisions (and way above my knowledge) but I would be a fool not to imagine other people have their own agenda to make a buck, perhaps even inhibiting innovation for instant gratification as well as not taking into account negative costs associated with the end of lifecycle or environmental/social consequences of other energy forms, whatever they may be...

In addition to the Triple Bottom Line, if things are skewed one way or another, a certain set of rules/principles/regulations (in this case gov. policy but it doesn't always have to be the gov. driven) can aid in ensuring performance measures align with needs and wants of ecological, economical, and socio-cultural realms for both present and future generations.

Otherwise, tragedy of the commons tends to be on a loop. Without any future driven policy (driven by demand this go around), we'll just be in a complacent reactionary state. Kuddos for innovation and a willingness to urge others to reimagine; supply and demand are shaping politics in California, hopefully a nudge in the right direction that also, get this, will reduce costs for electric vehicles.

*just went on a whim and started typing ahaha. On other info in thread, quite a bit of information on whether U.S. and other First World countries can be leaders, and not just condemn other countries for carbon emissions/pollution when First World countries benefited from doing the same and can aid in sharing costs of modernizing and bringing technology to other parts of the world... Pointing the finger and saying not fair is not going to solve anything.

*However, BS looks bad a** and will fit my needs until another afforded option is more appealing haha!
 
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essentialemployee

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In addition to the Triple Bottom Line, if things are skewed one way or another, a certain set of rules/principles/regulations (in this case gov. policy but it doesn't always have to be the gov. driven) can aid in ensuring performance measures align with needs and wants of ecological, economical, and socio-cultural realms for both present and future generations.
Yes let’s let payed government scientists tell us where society is skewed and needs aid. Matter of fact not just inform but also legally control how to fix it. It couldn’t have anything to do with money and control. It’s just a coincident that the richest people of the world became much richer from the recent worldwide lockdown “to aid society”. It must be a coincidence that Elon musk and Jeff bezos will make a future off the green agenda. Politician lobbying isn’t a real thing or anything. It must just be a conspiracy theory right?

So these billionaires working with government are making sure we align with needs and wants of ecological, economical, and socio-cultural realms for both present and future generations??

Burning gas doesn’t offend culture. Life is greater than feelings. Prove (not a government paid scientist written study) that carbon emissions have effected ecosystems more than deforestation, metropolitan areas and everything else that isn’t looked at as evil by the green agenda. Gas isn’t hurting the economy. Government controlling supply and price hurt economies. Gives the government and the rich more power.

It can’t be more painfully obvious than when a commercial comes on of Hollywood actors clapping for you for staying home and losing pay while bill gates doubles his net worth. But the green agenda is different right? What would we do without those adorable polar bear. Oh let’s cut down a forrest containing inferior brown bears to build a electric city. But isn’t that hypocritical? We will redirect the attention to the absence off dirty gas. So now instead of many competing energy providers now we have a few ultra weathly companies with a monopoly and total control disguised as saving the environment. Go along with their game and now you are a virtuous member of society. And you are rewarded with a Hollywood film reminding you what a wonderful citizen you are.
 

chaseAbronco

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Good read! Yes, lots more to global warming and impacts to our world than solely carbon emissions from vehicles: globalization, production, and consumption of natural resources, and the loss of habitat and acidification of our oceans have greatly impacted our biosphere. Carbon emissions along with actions you listed contribute to devastating our ecosystems, and I agree it's just one aspect. And yes, probably tangible and a target goal that may be both ambitious and attractive politically to at least start reducing carbon emissions from vehicles. Still good idea to curb SOME carbon emissions that have negative impacts (again, other issues, need other solutions - better urban planning, forest management, etc.). For the most part, agree with quite a bit.

It's not clear from your post, that government policy, the public, or the private sector should be leading the charge? Innovation? Policy? If neither one, then who??? And all are monetarily influenced by investors & elected officials/lobbyists, as well as our own beliefs/attitudes and how we consume information and contribute to the solution...and yes, that should be for the needs/wants of present while NOT compromising the needs/wants of future generations.

I don't think we're that far off from one another or where ever this thread started and headed, haha, I just watched the battery video, interesting.
 
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essentialemployee

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Good read! Yes, lots more to global warming and impacts to our world than solely carbon emissions from vehicles: globalization, production, and consumption of natural resources, and the loss of habitat and acidification of our oceans have greatly impacted our biosphere. Carbon emissions along with actions you listed contribute to devastating our ecosystems, and I agree it's just one aspect. And yes, probably tangible and a target goal that may be both ambitious and attractive politically to at least start reducing carbon emissions from vehicles. Still good idea to curb SOME carbon emissions that have negative impacts (again, other issues, need other solutions - better urban planning, forest management, etc.). For the most part, agree with quite a bit.

It's not clear from your post, that government policy, the public, or the private sector should be leading the charge? Innovation? Policy? If neither one, then who??? And all are monetarily influenced by investors & elected officials/lobbyists, as well as our own beliefs/attitudes and how we consume information and contribute to the solution...and yes, that should be for the needs/wants of present while NOT compromising the needs/wants of future generations.

I don't think we're that far off from one another or where ever this thread started and headed, haha, I just watched the battery video, interesting.
I absolutely think the solution to any of our problems are solved by what you’re doing right now which is asking questions and looking for answers rather than turning on the tv and waiting for the bought and paid for mainstream media (which is just PR for the government) tell us what the solution should be.

I personally believe both the public and private sectors should be able to have a go at solving problems instead of the government ruling with an iron fist forcing the solution of the highest bidder. When we expect government to solve all our problems, we lose are liberties and power and give our consent to be ruled over.

In a perfect world, the government works for the people and we tell them what cars they should be driving not the other way around. Those in power benefit for the current mindset that we are dependent on them to solve our problems for us.
 

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<sigh>
As someone who *does* know the math, and who *does* understand the science involved, global warming is a real thing - but it is very emphatically not a "belief system." Data does not give two sh*ts whether you "believe" it or not. Data can be manipulated - and climate data certainly is (NOAA and UKMet both acknowledge this point). So, if this offends your "belief," whatever; that does not matter in the slightest. What does matter is that if climate change is happening because of rising CO2 in the atmosphere, then we should see downstream effects. And, guess what? Those effects are happening, including oceanic acidification (and its effects), and so on.

For people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, becoming a multi-planetary species is a sincerely held vision because they definitely believe that human life on earth will be threatened from within or without, whether because of man-made ecological disasters, a supervolcano eruption, asteroid impact, or any similar catastrophe. They're putting their money and resources where their mouths are. Their efforts to get to Mars have no impact on anyone on this thread at the moment.

As for California, the point about that state's effort being irrelevant in terms of global impact is true; but it's also true that since it has the 5th largest economy in the world and the most people in the U.S., their policies carry a lot of weight in this country and globally. EVs are rapidly reaching cost parity with ICE vehicles in terms of $/kWh and will continue to improve. We're at a technological tipping point, or nearly so, where EVs will actually become lower cost. They're already higher performance in everything except range and convenience; they're also exceeding ICEs in terms of total lifetime ownership costs. By the time 2035 rolls around, it won't even be a contest.
 

essentialemployee

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<sigh>
As someone who *does* know the math, and who *does* understand the science involved, global warming is a real thing - but it is very emphatically not a "belief system." Data does not give two sh*ts whether you "believe" it or not. Data can be manipulated - and climate data certainly is (NOAA and UKMet both acknowledge this point). So, if this offends your "belief," whatever; that does not matter in the slightest. What does matter is that if climate change is happening because of rising CO2 in the atmosphere, then we should see downstream effects. And, guess what? Those effects are happening, including oceanic acidification (and its effects), and so on.

For people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, becoming a multi-planetary species is a sincerely held vision because they definitely believe that human life on earth will be threatened from within or without, whether because of man-made ecological disasters, a supervolcano eruption, asteroid impact, or any similar catastrophe. They're putting their money and resources where their mouths are. Their efforts to get to Mars have no impact on anyone on this thread at the moment.

As for California, the point about that state's effort being irrelevant in terms of global impact is true; but it's also true that since it has the 5th largest economy in the world and the most people in the U.S., their policies carry a lot of weight in this country and globally. EVs are rapidly reaching cost parity with ICE vehicles in terms of $/kWh and will continue to improve. We're at a technological tipping point, or nearly so, where EVs will actually become lower cost. They're already higher performance in everything except range and convenience; they're also exceeding ICEs in terms of total lifetime ownership costs. By the time 2035 rolls around, it won't even be a contest.
It looks like your belief is offended. Not believing an outlandish claim is not a belief, it’s a non belief. You have the outlandish claim- that the sky is falling/doomsday prophecy. You see the burden of proof is on the one with the outlandish claim. If you claim pigs can fly, you have to prove that claim. The burden of proven is not on the one calling bull.

Yes you are believing other peoples math and “data” that you haven’t calculated yourself. So yes you are thumping the sacred data of your religion that can’t be questioned. Data coming from Noah predicting a flood.. or NOAA predicting a flood. Just because you attach the word science behind an outlandish claim doesn’t make it science. What you mean to say is my dogma shows that global warming is real.
 

dreamwrx

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So the environment is not a problem and certainly not your problem. All fake news. If that is your stance, there is no argument.

Nevertheless, even in Texas, a customer pays a whole lot more than raw power costs for power at their door. I am saving $1,500 a year from solar that cost me $4,500 to install myself. Freemarket for me says that my lowest cost is to install solar. Many are coming to a similar conclusion.

I'm not being rhetoric as I'm genuinely curious about your setup. Can you link some of the equipment you are using and also state how much foot print you needed to get to the cost you are at?

Also have you had any issues with the system and what about the maintenance and replacement plans factored into owning the solar setup?

I mean.. if self install will save $1500/year but needs a whole rebuild in 5 years.. yes it's true that overall I would be saving but at the cost of additional time and landfill space. At that point it would not be feasible in my particular case.

Also is there a drop in efficiency rate of energy conversion every year? what's the life expectancy going to be at?
 

Njia

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It looks like your belief is offended. Not believing an outlandish claim is not a belief, it’s a non belief. You have the outlandish claim- that the sky is falling/doomsday prophecy. You see the burden of proof is on the one with the outlandish claim. If you claim pigs can fly, you have to prove that claim. The burden of proven is not on the one calling bull.

Yes you are believing other peoples math and “data” that you haven’t calculated yourself. So yes you are thumping the sacred data of your religion that can’t be questioned. Data coming from Noah predicting a flood.. or NOAA predicting a flood. Just because you attach the word science behind an outlandish claim doesn’t make it science. What you mean to say is my dogma shows that global warming is real.
WTF are you talking about?
 

chaseAbronco

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As for California, the point about that state's effort being irrelevant in terms of global impact is true; but it's also true that since it has the 5th largest economy in the world and the most people in the U.S., their policies carry a lot of weight in this country and globally. EVs are rapidly reaching cost parity with ICE vehicles in terms of $/kWh and will continue to improve. We're at a technological tipping point, or nearly so, where EVs will actually become lower cost. They're already higher performance in everything except range and convenience; they're also exceeding ICEs in terms of total lifetime ownership costs. By the time 2035 rolls around, it won't even be a contest.
Well said! Global warming is real and acknowledging we're reaping havoc on our environment is crucial so we can do something about it. Aside from any conspiracy theories mentioned and doom and gloom outlooks, I'm not going down that road (of what essential employee posted), what you say is relevant info regarding the vehicles, in that California is getting the ball rolling and recognizes EVs have a place, and that lowering the costs is crucial as their performance is exceptional from what I gather. Thanks for summarizing the main points.

And it is the public steering this movement (publicly traded companies), supply and demand is at play, another option is at the table, that's what was mentioned.... if EVs are an attractive product at the right costs, then let people buy :) . I believe gas and oil companies already get gov. subsidies so let's not kid ourselves EVs haven't had roadblocks but the fact that a publicly traded company is getting the investments they need to make EVs a reality.... shall be it. Public officials in CA see the benefits to at turning a conversation into action about investing in our future. I'm all for it. 2035 is 15 years away, not tomorrow but enough of a window to at least consider EVs and other alternatives as viable options. Technology, costs, and the market will decide.

*time to shift my focus back on BS and yes, hoping an EV that is in my price range and can meet some 4x4 needs will be had in the future. Right now, the BS is one sic vehicle for what it's designed for.
 

essentialemployee

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Well said! Global warming is real and acknowledging we're reaping havoc on our environment is crucial so we can do something about it. Aside from any conspiracy theories mentioned and doom and gloom outlooks, I'm not going down that road (of what essential employee posted), what you say is relevant info regarding the vehicles, in that California is getting the ball rolling and recognizes EVs have a place, and that lowering the costs is crucial as their performance is exceptional from what I gather.
Acknowledging that proof and data, from government funded scientists, are not the same thing -is crucial to keeping our liberties and not believing in fear propaganda just because the media says “all experts” agree. It’s great if you want to eliminate burning of gas from your personal life. It’s not so great when you’re asking others adopt the faith in a belief as you.

If the environment was really being destroyed by us I could see your concern to want government to ban and regulate our life’s.

Two types of people in the global warming debate. Those that can’t prove this outlandish claim and can still critically think about what msm spoon feeds you.. and those that can’t prove this outlandish claim but also cannot possibly consider questioning our authority figures.
 

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The difference between belief and science. Complicated subject for some to grasp
Yeah, but denialism is easy to grasp. Classic symptoms verified.

Can you link some of the equipment you are using and also state how much foot print you needed to get to the cost you are at?
https://sunwatts.com/400-watt-q-cells-q-peak-duo-l-g5-2-mono-xl-solar-panel/
https://www.chiliconpower.com/index.html#Info Microinverters CP-720
https://www.chiliconpower.com/index.html#Info Cortex GATEWAY
https://www.ironridge.com/tilt-mount/

Area required is related to codes. I have a flat roof, so I need space to walk between rows of panels and area around the panels for access and safety. For me, this is about 400 ft2. Normally it would be the area of the panels only (260 ft2)

Most of today's solar is designed to produce power for 20+ years and yes, the panels degrade a little, every year (~85% by year 20) . I'm sure there will be some costs along the way, but replacement costs are continually going down and efficiency going up. Much of a panel is also recyclable (glass, aluminum frame, cables). It's easy to recycle such "trash", just like the left over aluminum and copper cable scraps from my install.
 

essentialemployee

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Yeah, but denialism is easy to grasp. Classic symptoms verified.
Denying an outlandish claim is not denialism. The possibility of being manipulated by your government is an uncomfortable thought and some people may experience denialism and believe what they are told by default.
 
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