What gives? Bad battery leads to new discovery

Stircrazy

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There is only 1 module in Forscan to change the battery type. I just changed my daughters AGM in her 17 Fusion, original battery. My EFB lasted under 3 years..... There are numerous reports of early failed EFB batteries, issues with electronics due to the battery, etc on this site. My OPINION is due to Ford putting in EFB batteries (well documented supplier shortage of AGM batteries) into Sports that the computer programming showed should have an AGM.
the EFB's will work fine, just won't last as long. that would be your normal 3 to 5 years as oposed to the 8 years + of a agm.
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Dude

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I have asked several dealerships, most stated they replace the battery with either type (AGM Battery or EFB), whichever the customer purchased and the dealership does not do any battery reset procedure or use FORScan of course and use none of the Ford tools - they stated (as does the owners manual) the BMS learns on its own after 8 hours

My ā€˜22 came from factory with the EFB which failed pretty quickly (about 2 years) and the dealership mobile service replaced under warranty with an AGM Battery. The mobile tech did not perform any BMS Reset or touch any of the modules - I did perform the BMS Reset Procedure after the mobile tech left. After about 18 months, the Motorcraft AGM Battery shows clear signs it is failing.

I realize it is your opinion regarding the single parameter (AGM / EFB) but I’ve found no documentation for that parameter and if a tool like FORScan (or Ford’s tools if any a dealership) should be used to check that particular parameter and set it if it doesn’t match the installed battery type. Certainly Walmart, AAA and other places I’ve used to replace batteries do absolutely nothing after replacing the battery.

Maybe someone (@rugedraw) with the specific knowledge on the parameter can chime in?
 
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rugedraw

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Maybe some mone (@rugedraw) with the specific knowledge on the parameter can chime in?
Kinda correct; the BMS will reset itself after 8 hours if certain conditions are met. Vehicle has to be left in total sleep mode and untouched. You cannot pull it up in Fordpass; you cannot unlock it or even get the keys within 25 feet of the vehicle, and you cannot have anything plugged into the vehicle that will draw any juice from the 12v battery. Even then, the purpose of this is to reset the BMS data quality if the data is corrupted. The proper thing to do is to reset the BMS when a new battery is installed. The only way (that I know of) to know if the BMS data quality is corrupted is if an OTA fails to install and you run the VIN if the vehicle in PTS and look at the OTA dashboard to see why it is failing. It will clearly tell you the BMS data quality is off. See screenshot below from the OTA dashboard of a vehicle with a failing OTA update:

Ford Bronco Sport What gives? Bad battery leads to new discovery 160698-1c05bba2ea47fdc22ee511295688542f


There is a guy on the Mach E forum who spent A LOT of time researching the 12v battery issues on Ford vehicles and their effect on the OTA process. He made a thread about which I will link below. Long read, but lots of good info here:

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/how-to-get-failed-otas-to-install.29749/

Long story short: If you install a new battery, make sure the battery is at 100% charge and just reset the BMS right then and there.

In terms of making the FORScan change from FLD to AGM: I am not sure how much of an effect it will have in the system to put an AGM battery in a vehicle that is configured for an EFB battery. I can tell you that if it were my vehicle, I would make the FORScan change to reflect that battery type I am using because it is quick and easy to do.
 
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Summers22

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@rugedraw so is it your opinion that if you have forscan, that's probably the best way to reset your BMS and ro also change your battery type in the bcm to match up?
 

rugedraw

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@rugedraw so is it your opinion that if you have forscan, that's probably the best way to reset your BMS and ro also change your battery type in the bcm to match up?
FORScan is the only way a DIY user can reconfigure the BCM to reflect the battery type being used.

BMS reset can be done without FORScan. You just turn on the ignition (key on; engine off), flash the high beam 5 times and tap the brake 3 times and you will see the battery icon in the cluster flash a few times and you're done.

The only thing to note about a BMS reset is that to make sure the BMS data is accurate, this is only to be done if the battery is charged to 100%.
 


Dude

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FORScan is the only way a DIY user can reconfigure the BCM to reflect the battery type being used.
@rugedraw Can you provide any documentation on the effect that BCM Parameter has for these two cases:

1. BCM Parameter states: AGM but an EFB (battery) is installed

2. BCM Parameter states: EFB but an AGM Battery is installed

I have seen documentation from Ford for the Bronco Sport that the BCM properly handles both battery types (AGM/EFB) given that the BCM Reset is performed or that 8 hours under the conditions you stated earlier has occurred.

There was never any mention regarding that BCM Parameter
 

rugedraw

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@rugedraw Can you provide any documentation on the effect that BCM Parameter has for these two cases:

1. BCM Parameter states: AGM but an EFB (battery) is installed

2. BCM Parameter states: EFB but an AGM Battery is installed

I have seen documentation from Ford for the Bronco Sport that the BCM properly handles both battery types (AGM/EFB) given that the BCM Reset is performed or that 8 hours under the conditions you stated earlier has occurred.

There was never any mention regarding that BCM Parameter
Tbh, I don't know. As I mentioned above, I am not sure what effect (if any) the BMS system will have if the BCM is configured for one type of battery and another type is used. Based on my non-expert knowledge of the differences between a flooded battery and an AGM one, I don't see why it would matter. All I am saying is that if it were my vehicle, I would want the BCM to be configured for the type of battery that is in it regardless of what Ford says.

In terms of the BMS reset: I don't have any documentation as to why one BMS reset method is better than the other. I prefer the BMS reset method that you do yourself over the 8 hours one for one simple reason:

Once you install the battery on a vehicle, the SoC slowly but surely starts to deplete. Assuming you put a battery in at 100% and wait for the 8 hour BMS reset method: What if the battery SoC dropped to 96% during those 8 hours? If that happens, then the vehicle will think that the battery is charged to 100% when it gets to 96%. This completely throws off everything the battery monitoring system is supposed to manage.

Regardless of what Ford says, it makes no sense to use the 8 hour method when installing a new battery. The only time I have ever recommended to someone to use the 8 hour method is in the case of a failing update due to BMS data quality not being within spec.
 
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Dude

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…I prefer the BMS reset method that you do yourself over the 8 hours BMS Reset method
I also do not use the 8 hours method, I have only used the BMS reset method (we both listed the same steps earlier) but in the link you provided, that BMS reset method is listed as the "last resort" method .. yet that method is the one Ford documented in the Owner’s Manual.

Notwithstanding that, you did provide sage advice which is key information and for whatever reason, Ford did not document in the Owner’s Manual !!

ā€œLong story short: If you install a new battery, make sure the battery is at 100% charge and just reset the BMS right then and thereā€

Link provided earlier:

(I realize this link is for the Mach-E so the info isn’t specific to Bronco Sports)

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/how-to-get-failed-otas-to-install.29749/
ā€œBMS Reset Method: This method should be considered "last resort" since it resets 12V BMS (battery management system) learned parameters. The 12V battery must be close to full charge before resetting the BMS. The best method is to disconnect the 12V battery, fully charge it, reconnect it, and reset the BMS. WARNING: Do not reset the BMS on a suspected failing battery, as this can potentially cause an OTA to BRICK the car if the 12V battery dies during the update. Resetting the BMS tells the computer you have a brand new battery at 100% heath, if the battery is way off from this it can cause major issues.ā€
 

Stircrazy

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I have asked several dealerships, most stated they replace the battery with either type (AGM Battery or EFB), whichever the customer purchased and the dealership does not do any battery reset procedure or use FORScan of course and use none of the Ford tools - they stated (as does the owners manual) the BMS learns on its own after 8 hours

My ā€˜22 came from factory with the EFB which failed pretty quickly (about 2 years) and the dealership mobile service replaced under warranty with an AGM Battery. The mobile tech did not perform any BMS Reset or touch any of the modules - I did perform the BMS Reset Procedure after the mobile tech left. After about 18 months, the Motorcraft AGM Battery shows clear signs it is failing.

I realize it is your opinion regarding the single parameter (AGM / EFB) but I’ve found no documentation for that parameter and if a tool like FORScan (or Ford’s tools if any a dealership) should be used to check that particular parameter and set it if it doesn’t match the installed battery type. Certainly Walmart, AAA and other places I’ve used to replace batteries do absolutely nothing after replacing the battery.

Maybe someone (@rugedraw) with the specific knowledge on the parameter can chime in?
the important thing is not only to reset it to the right type of battery, and there isn't much difference between a agm and an enhanced, but there is. but more importantly you are reseting it to tell it that there is a new battery in the vehicle. with the new smart altanators and such the charge profile changes over the life of the battery to keep it working as long as possible. if you don't let it know you have a new battery through the reset then the charge profile will be wonky and you can actualy dammage the battery. while it might not be apartent right away it will show up in ways like a 8 year AGM only lasting 3 or 4 years, or a normal battery only lasting 2 years.

when you use fords system or forscan oneof the questions it has is set battery condition to new. and you say yes if its a new battery.
 

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@Stircrazy my experience with batteries in the phoenix area over the past decades is to treat the 12V battery as a maintenance item - to avoid chance of being stranded, I replace the battery every 2 years no matter what

A couple of hot summers is my experience here as have many people I know so any 12V AGM battery is fine because it’s getting replaced in 2 years. I know your experience is different than mine.

The AGM Battery I have now will be 2 years old mid summer and I suspect the reason it’s failing at 18 months is due to sulfation which is a topic covered pretty well here:

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/how-to-recondition-service-your-12v-battery.11069/
 


jkernitzki

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@Stircrazy my experience with batteries in the phoenix area over the past decades is to treat the 12V battery as a maintenance item - to avoid chance of being stranded, I replace the battery every 2 years no matter what

A couple of hot summers is my experience here as have many people I know so any 12V AGM battery is fine because it’s getting replaced in 2 years. I know your experience is different than mine.

The AGM Battery I have now will be 2 years old mid summer and I suspect the reason it’s failing at 18 months is due to sulfation which is a topic covered pretty well here:

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/how-to-recondition-service-your-12v-battery.11069/
This. We've never gotten more than three years out of a battery in the Valley, and only that long because it died while we weren't keeping up with timely replacement.
 
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I decided to pull the battery and throw it on my NOCO charger until it turns green tomorrow, then will reinstall it and do another BMS after reading all the tips here. I do not know what the % battery was charged to when I installed it Thursday straight from the store and performed a reset.
 

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I also do not use the 8 hours method, I have only used the BMS reset method (we both listed the same steps earlier) but in the link you provided, that BMS reset method is listed as the "last resort" method .. yet that method is the one Ford documented in the Owner’s Manual.

Notwithstanding that, you did provide sage advice which is key information and for whatever reason, Ford did not document in the Owner’s Manual !!

ā€œLong story short: If you install a new battery, make sure the battery is at 100% charge and just reset the BMS right then and thereā€

Link provided earlier:

(I realize this link is for the Mach-E so the info isn’t specific to Bronco Sports)

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/how-to-get-failed-otas-to-install.29749/
ā€œBMS Reset Method: This method should be considered "last resort" since it resets 12V BMS (battery management system) learned parameters. The 12V battery must be close to full charge before resetting the BMS. The best method is to disconnect the 12V battery, fully charge it, reconnect it, and reset the BMS. WARNING: Do not reset the BMS on a suspected failing battery, as this can potentially cause an OTA to BRICK the car if the 12V battery dies during the update. Resetting the BMS tells the computer you have a brand new battery at 100% heath, if the battery is way off from this it can cause major issues.ā€
Note that thread is specific to overcome over the air updates not installing due to the 12v battery not meeting the parameters of the algorithm set by Ford to have them safely install. So it is last resort in the particular case of not getting an update to install. I referenced it because overall, the info there is good to gain an understanding of how the BMS system functions in general.
 

BLUEOVALRACER

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Only thing I dislike about Mavericks are the interiors on a majority of their trims. I dont like the blue hues they use and would love a LOBO, but that lime and turquoise stitching....so I was pretty much set on a Lariat.
I don't mind the blue hues in mine,but I didn't care at all for the interiors with the orange hues!! Most of the blue in Mine in front and behind the shifter are covered with stuff like glasses and bank withdrawl slips [drive thru banking] in front of the shifter and calculator and tissues behind the shifter!!
Ford Bronco Sport What gives? Bad battery leads to new discovery IMG_0650
Ford Bronco Sport What gives? Bad battery leads to new discovery IMG_0649
 
 







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