New Car Buying Strategy

gatornek

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It occurred to me by going through some other threads, that there are some knowledgeable fellows here on this particular subject. My wife's RAV4 is nearing the end for her. Its a 2014 XLE, no accidents; not even a ticket for her...ever. The engine is a champ. 115K miles. Never an issue. But for her, there is sun damage on the roof paint, and now, there is STARTING to show some sun damage on the sides. I just got lazy with waxing and sealing it the past few years, I guess. It's not like awful, but you can see when you get up close. But I would say the car is in 'good' condition due to the engine.

Car buying is not what it used to be, and I don't think waiting until the absolutely last moment is the way it should be done anymore. Not only that, but with inventories the way they are, the entire process takes much longer than it used to. So even though my wife is more like, 'Lets wait until the end of the year' ... for me that means, I need to probably start prepping now.

Let me give you some of my core caveats that I had been using up and until now.

1) I don't go to the dealership until the price is "settled" via email. Meaning, the expectation for me is that I won't be able to get the price any lower than what I have already tried, and I don't expect them to bait and switch or surprise me when I get there. I would not step foot in a dealership without an agree upon price in hand. Getting you to sit, wait, get frustrated, is the easiest way to break you down.

2) I used to be hard-core "I will NEVER pay any bullsh!t 'dealer fees'". I will admit that I paid I think $500 when I got my Badlands. It was the first time I had probably done so in about 20 years. It was the best price after extensive searching. It seemed like the odds were stacked in the dealers favor. However, I wonder if these might be more negotiable items now that inventory levels are getting 'better'. The way I always see it, and you won't be able to change my mind on this, is dealers make profits on what they paid for the car vs the sale price. That's it. I'm not stuffing a big 'tip' into their pocket too, if I can help it.

3) I've been a big proponent of 'truecar' and the data there about what dealerships are getting 'offered' for a particular vehicle. I feel it used to be MUCH better, like 15 years ago. But I still see it as valuable and is probably my go-to online tool. I'm sure there are better now.

4) My goal used to be UNDER MSRP. Always. I always looked at it as a 'negotiation loss' if I were to pay MSRP. I'm not sure how realistic under MSRP is anymore. However, Im telling you right now, I'm NOT paying more than MSRP. Dealer 'inventory fees' can suck it. Nope. I will go MSRP if I have to, but not over. And I'm willing to give up on a particular model because of it.

5) I know inventory levels are a big driver of price right now. Honda? Toyota? They have no inventory, so they are going to be looking for over MSRP most likely. Its why I like the Ford Explorer right now for my wife. Inventory is stocked with them.


So I've been watching a lot of Youtube on car buying nowadays, and a strategy I see popping up more and more, is to actually GO TO THE DEALERSHIP first. But ONLY to test drive the car. When done, be firm about not wanting to make a decision and wanting to go home to think about it. DO NOT ENTER INTO NEGOTIATION. This supposedly demonstrates that you are an very interested customer vs the hundreds of emails a particular salesmen receives on any given day; and makes it more comfortable for the salesman to negotiate with you via email vs some unknown random.

I also see a lot of you chiming in with dealer incentive and discounts. I don't know if y'all just live in good areas, and I'm stuck with sh!tty dealerships, but I can't find those anywhere around me. Is there an online tool that can help me with that?

Would love to hear more about today's strategies from those of you who are well versed.

The awful thing about car buying is that we do it ONCE every few years or so. Salesmen do this every day. You gotta be on your game if you want to 'save' money.
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RushMan

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It occurred to me by going through some other threads, that there are some knowledgeable fellows here on this particular subject. My wife's RAV4 is nearing the end for her. Its a 2014 XLE, no accidents; not even a ticket for her...ever. The engine is a champ. 115K miles. Never an issue. But for her, there is sun damage on the roof paint, and now, there is STARTING to show some sun damage on the sides. I just got lazy with waxing and sealing it the past few years, I guess. It's not like awful, but you can see when you get up close. But I would say the car is in 'good' condition due to the engine.

Car buying is not what it used to be, and I don't think waiting until the absolutely last moment is the way it should be done anymore. Not only that, but with inventories the way they are, the entire process takes much longer than it used to. So even though my wife is more like, 'Lets wait until the end of the year' ... for me that means, I need to probably start prepping now.

Let me give you some of my core caveats that I had been using up and until now.

1) I don't go to the dealership until the price is "settled" via email. Meaning, the expectation for me is that I won't be able to get the price any lower than what I have already tried, and I don't expect them to bait and switch or surprise me when I get there. I would not step foot in a dealership without an agree upon price in hand. Getting you to sit, wait, get frustrated, is the easiest way to break you down.

2) I used to be hard-core "I will NEVER pay any bullsh!t 'dealer fees'". I will admit that I paid I think $500 when I got my Badlands. It was the first time I had probably done so in about 20 years. It was the best price after extensive searching. It seemed like the odds were stacked in the dealers favor. However, I wonder if these might be more negotiable items now that inventory levels are getting 'better'. The way I always see it, and you won't be able to change my mind on this, is dealers make profits on what they paid for the car vs the sale price. That's it. I'm not stuffing a big 'tip' into their pocket too, if I can help it.

3) I've been a big proponent of 'truecar' and the data there about what dealerships are getting 'offered' for a particular vehicle. I feel it used to be MUCH better, like 15 years ago. But I still see it as valuable and is probably my go-to online tool. I'm sure there are better now.

4) My goal used to be UNDER MSRP. Always. I always looked at it as a 'negotiation loss' if I were to pay MSRP. I'm not sure how realistic under MSRP is anymore. However, Im telling you right now, I'm NOT paying more than MSRP. Dealer 'inventory fees' can suck it. Nope. I will go MSRP if I have to, but not over. And I'm willing to give up on a particular model because of it.

5) I know inventory levels are a big driver of price right now. Honda? Toyota? They have no inventory, so they are going to be looking for over MSRP most likely. Its why I like the Ford Explorer right now for my wife. Inventory is stocked with them.


So I've been watching a lot of Youtube on car buying nowadays, and a strategy I see popping up more and more, is to actually GO TO THE DEALERSHIP first. But ONLY to test drive the car. When done, be firm about not wanting to make a decision and wanting to go home to think about it. DO NOT ENTER INTO NEGOTIATION. This supposedly demonstrates that you are an very interested customer vs the hundreds of emails a particular salesmen receives on any given day; and makes it more comfortable for the salesman to negotiate with you via email vs some unknown random.

I also see a lot of you chiming in with dealer incentive and discounts. I don't know if y'all just live in good areas, and I'm stuck with sh!tty dealerships, but I can't find those anywhere around me. Is there an online tool that can help me with that?

Would love to hear more about today's strategies from those of you who are well versed.

The awful thing about car buying is that we do it ONCE every few years or so. Salesmen do this every day. You gotta be on your game if you want to 'save' money.
I have one strategy: hang tough, while listening and reading carefully. Feel free to walk out at any time of a salesperson's misleading behavior and don't feel bad about it.

Car Edge has a bunch of free tools to help car buyers avoid many of the problems in new and used car buying. I'm not associated with Car Edge, only have seen their YouTube videos and live streams. Some of their videos demonstrate via play acting, the misleading tactics used by some car dealerships and sales personnel.
 

Mark S.

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gatornek

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I have one strategy: hang tough, while listening and reading carefully. Feel free to walk out at any time of a salesperson's misleading behavior and don't feel bad about it.

Car Edge has a bunch of free tools to help car buyers avoid many of the problems in new and used car buying. I'm not associated with Car Edge, only have seen their YouTube videos and live streams. Some of their videos demonstrate via play acting, the misleading tactics used by some car dealerships and sales personnel.
I honestly have a tough time not having LESS of a visceral reaction when I feel a salesman is being dishonest (bait and switch, outright lying). I definitely don't feel bad about it. But sometimes I feel I torpedo a potential deal before it has a chance to marinate. You never know when the floor manager might decide to replace the salesman dealing with you, or go in himself. But yeah, the threat of me getting up and starting to walk, is always real, and has to be if you're going to car shop.

I will check out Car Edge. Thse are the types of recs I was looking for. Just more online resources besides truecar that I can take advantage of when it comes to dealer pricing.
 
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gatornek

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Speaking of 'tactics' above...

Ive been often recruited to help with other's car purchases, whether its family or friends. People around me just know me as someone who doesn't go the dealership to 'make friends'.

I've had a couple of instances where I essentially played "good cop, bad cop"; where I was the 'crazed, but TRUSTED' advisor, while the buyer was very accomodating and passive...but with absolute fealty pledged over and over to my 'final decision'. And when I say crazed, you gotta make them believe you're coming out of absolute left field. Like a total wildcard. The looks on their faces would be priceless. They think have people pegged, and then you start acting like a schizophrenic, with a companion that is holding a $25K check. Man, Ive seen some bewildered car salesman faces, and its been priceless each time. Was even to succesfully turn them into insanely great deals on a couple of occasions (~5K below MSRP....no lie).

Those type of skit tactics are hard to pull off and requires a good amount of coordination and trust between the 'advisor' and the 'purchaser'.
 


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gatornek

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There is only one goal .... ALWAYS.

Finalizing the "out the door price"

What is that? Simple. It's the price you agreed on to the car plus tax, title and tag. That's it. Nothing else.

Fees? Consider that as price of the car. If you don't you're already screwed. That's all you should ever truly be discussing during negotiation...the price of the car.

"How are you going to pay?" Haven't decided yet.
"What is your down payment?" Doesn't matter.
"Do you need financing" ? I have my own ready to go if needed, but am willing to talk to your FO

AND ONLY YOUR FO!

"Do you have a trade-in"? I don't think so. I feel like keeping my old car as a beater.

None of those questions that they incessantly want to ask you has anything to do with the price of the car. All it is, is a way to paint you as one of the thousands of other characters that waltz through their doors, that they've been able to corner. If they can't put their thumb on you, the better it is for your negotiating prospects.
 
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RushMan

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I honestly have a tough time not having LESS of a visceral reaction when I feel a salesman is being dishonest (bait and switch, outright lying). I definitely don't feel bad about it. But sometimes I feel I torpedo a potential deal before it has a chance to marinate. You never know when the floor manager might decide to replace the salesman dealing with you, or go in himself. But yeah, the threat of me getting and starting to walk, is always real, and has to be if you're going to car shop.

I will check out Car Edge. Thse are the types of recs I was looking for. Just more online resources besides truecar that I can take advantage of when it comes to dealer pricing.
They do offer concierge service (for a price of course), and have links to search for a car's value. Even though I am no longer in the market for buying a car, I enjoy their live stream and recorded shows.
I enjoy giving the salesman a hard time, especially when they are lying/bullshitting. Sometimes, I throw in an weak insult to use it as a tease to determine how honest they are being with me. In the past, I have walked away from a salesman and chose a different salesman.
When I ordered my BSBL last summer, I admit to giving my young salesman a hard time - a learning experience for him. And he didn't take anything personally. When I've stopped into the dealership, he comes over to the service side and greets me and we have friendly conversations. Yesterday I stopped in and I asked him about who orders cars for stock. My curiosity on this was peaked when a friend told me that he was looking to swap his wife's Escape for a BSBL but couldn't find one on a lot with the 360+ option. That was the motivation for me to start the Poll in regards to whom had 360+ on their cars.
He said that he used to order cars for stock, but the General Sales Manager now does all of the ordering for stock. I also asked specifically about ordering 360+ on Bronco Sports and he said that he doesn't know of any restrictions on ordering that option. He did say that sometimes, Ford corporate does place restrictions on ordering certain trims or certain options at various times throughout the model year. And those restrictions/requirements are probably based on what limitations or excesses that Ford has on certain parts. That latter comment is corroborated by comments that Tim Bartz at MacArthur Ford in Kansas has made during the ordering segment of his weekly YouTube live streams.
 
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gatornek

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They do offer concierge service (for a price of course), and have links to search for a car's value. Even though I am no longer in the market for buying a car, I enjoy their live stream and recorded shows.
I enjoy giving the salesman a hard time, especially when they are lying/bullshitting. Sometimes, I throw in an weak insult to use it as a tease to determine how honest they are being with me. In the past, I have walked away from a salesman and chose a different salesman.
When I ordered my BSBL last summer, I admit to giving my young salesman a hard time - a learning experience for him. And he didn't take anything personally. When I've stopped into the dealership, he comes over to the service side and greets me and we have friendly conversations. Yesterday I stopped in and I asked him about who orders cars for stock. My curiosity on this was peaked when a friend told me that he was looking to swap his wife's Escape for a BSBL but couldn't find one on a lot with the 360+ option. That was the motivation for me to start the Poll in regards to whom had 360+ on their cars.
He said that he used to order cars for stock, but the General Sales Manager now does all of the ordering for stock. I also asked specifically about ordering 360+ on Bronco Sports and he said that he doesn't know of any restrictions on ordering that option. He did say that sometimes, Ford corporate does place restrictions on ordering certain trims or certain options at various times throughout the model year. And those restrictions/requirements are probably based on what limitations or excesses that Ford has on certain parts. That latter comment is corroborated by comments that Tim Bartz at MacArthur Ford in Kansas has made during the ordering segment of his weekly YouTube live streams.
Great info.
 

Glamdring70

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You would probably be one of the people that could benefit from a car buying program like the Ford X-plan or the Costco buying service. Everything is prearranged on price. You just order and sign. May or may not be the absolute best deal you can ever negotiate because dealers might have some older stock on special.

I didn't negotiate the Bronco Sport at all, but 2021 was a weird time to buy a car. The dealer I went to did straight MSRP. $0 in addons or markup and "typical" Oregon state fees. That was considered a "deal". Inventory is up now, but you may or may not find stuff lingering long enough to get into that manager special territory.
\
I'm with you that negotiating with the lying salesman is a tedious, unnecessary chore. They're so used to lying, they don't even realize it. Last car I bought (2022), I called first to try to reserve over the phone- it was a bit of a drive. I verified there was $0 in DIO and extra dealer charges. Get there to find $300 for the "dealer installed stolen vehicle recovery system", which if you don't know, is a bunch of VIN# stickers that go all over the car parts so that, in theory, it can be tracked if stolen. So I was a little miffed, but in the back of my mind, $300 wasn't a deal breaker, because finding cars in 2022 was worse than 2021. Anyways, the whole point, I tell the sales man I want them to comp me some swag from the parts and accessory department to make up for the $300 add on. He tells me that they could probably do it, but parts is closed on Saturday. I tell him "Today is a Wednesday." Bought the car anyhow, didn't get the accessory. Good luck out there.
 

Bill G

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Negotiations depend on how I feel that day. Walked out on a deal (they ā€œlostā€ $36,000) over exactly two cents. Argued with two salesmen and a manager for 15 hours, got the car for exactly what I offered them 30 seconds after I walked on the lot.
In the past I never went shopping ā€™til I had gotten all the info on the dealerā€™s costs (vehicle, options, etc), and his current rebates and ā€œspifsā€ from the manufacturer. I donā€™t know if the banks will readily give them to you, but my credit union will.
Now I try to go to one place I kinda trust. The guy I deal with is so honest; when I ordered my BS from him in ā€™20 he sold to me for MSRP plus discounts. Ford raised the the price to the dealer $100 prior to it being delivered and I said, ā€œNo problemā€. Salesman apologized, and sent me $100 bill after deal was done and BS delivered.
 


Dude

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This post is specific to ordering a vehicle.

Generally there is no need to deal with a floor salesman or to go into a dealership when ordering a new Ford vehicle assuming you donā€™t mind waiting for the vehicle to be built to your needs.

This post is not for those people that use Ford plans like Ford X Plan etc. as specific rules apply to those plans.

My suggestions:
Do your own homework to determine the new vehicle you want, the specific model and options. The Ford website Build tool is a good choice here.

Use various online resources to determine:
Vehicle cost for the model and options you selected
MSRP for the specific vehicle and options (good to know that)
Use various websites such as:
http://markups.org/,
And determine the Destination and Delivery fee and other fees for the vehicle.
You want to arm yourself as much as possible with pricing information.

Use various car buying services (Costco, AAA Car Buying, etc.) so you armed with pricing information available for the specific vehicle you want

Search out all Ford rebates, coupons, etc. that apply to your desired vehicle. Take screenshots and make note of the applicable restrictions.

Do your own homework to check out reviews of dealerships (Google maps often shows reviews), use websites such as https://www.dealerrater.com/ etc.
Read reviews thoroughly to chose 2-3 dealerships you want to order from. Note that service departments often have separate reviews so the dealership you buy from may not be the dealership you use for service in the future. Note: A better price for ordering a vehicle might be available at a dealership in another state if that works for you.

For your chosen 2-3 dealerships you want to order from, call each of them and find out if they have a Fleet Manager (the exact title may vary by Dealership) and obtain the Fleet Manager name, email and phone number.. Thereā€™s no need to talk to the Fleet Manager yet. I would not use a Dealershipā€™s Internet buying manager or team (those are often staffed with entry level salespeople).

Now you are armed with the information you need. Email the Fleet Manager and provide your exact list of vehicle, model and options. Ask for their best price to order the vehicle and if a deposit is needed. Ask for prices of the options to be broken out separately but some Fleet Managers will not want to do that. Also ask how to obtain a refund of any deposit if you decide to cancel the purchase. In this email state you want no dealer add-ons, nothing not even the dealerships sticker placed on the vehicle.

Email goes to the Fleet Manager at each of the 2-3 dealerships you selected. And a variation of the email goes to AAA Car Buying service and/or other car buying services that can order a vehicle for you.

Some of your emails likely will be ignored so at this point you might have to call the Fleet Manager and ask them to respond to your email.

Most likely one Fleet Manager (or car buying service) will stand out and you proceed to work with that one - other emails might be needed to confirm Ford rebates or other applicable offers. Keep all this correspondence including screen shots of these offers because you might need them later as very often the specific rebate will not be in place when your vehicle arrives. As long as you follow the restrictions for the offer it will be valid because it was valid at the time the order was placed.

The above also works for high demand vehicles which you may be able to buy from a Fleet Manager without incurring markups (a Fleet Manager may or may not be able to do this based on how the dealership operates).

Most likely the only time you need to go into the dealership and speak with the fleet manager is when going in to pick up the vehicle.

Will the above get you the lowest price vs buying a vehicle off the lot? Maybe not (probably not) because buying off the lot may get you access to other incentives a dealership has to make a sale.

Perhaps some of the above info will help someone that doesnā€™t want to order but buys off the lot. And note that I did not cover trade ins or financing or Ford extended warranties as each of those topics deserves their own separate post.
 
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gatornek

gatornek

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You want to arm yourself as much as possible with pricing information.
This is so true, because they will try to bullsh!t you on each and every charge, I even had one salesmen try to convince me tha the "title and tag" portion would cost me 2K!!! šŸ˜‚

Now, I try and make it a point to get the VIN, and then get the exact info from the DMV.

markups looks fantastic. Had no clue. I knew I was gonna get some good stuff from you guys. Thank you.
 

daShadow

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When I got my Outer Banks a couple of months ago at the only Ford dealer for 70 miles, things went well. They knocked $1000 right off the top of MSRP. Then I looked at the dealer add on crap. Several hundred for some kind of paint chip protection and about $300 for the thing that makes the 3rd brake light flash when you first hit the brakes. Um, no. Told salesman I'm not paying for any of that, he said no problem on the paint thing, but the flashing brake light was already installed. I told him it is either a freebie for me or take it off. He said they could maybe take it off but I would have to come back another day and wait for them to remove it. I'm retired, no problem. Went back in a few days and they removed it. This is the 3rd vehicle I have gotten from in the last few years and so far they have been good.

.
 

Escape2Bronco

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Like others have said, knowledge is all the power you need. It always goes better when you know more about the process than the person on the other side of the table.

There are deals out there but it depends on what your wife wants. When my wife wanted a dark blue Civic back in 2008, it was simple, this is what she wants, I know what the invoice is and what your holdback is, do you want to sell it or not?

As Mark says, end of the model year is usually the easiest to get a good deal but then you are already in the rears by a year, not an issue if you are keeping it a long time. Next best time is the last day of the month or quarter. They are normally trying to meet a sales quota.

Best of luck to you.
 

vetterestorer

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I bought 2 vehicles lately and both times (Honda and Ford) after negations were finished there was a $1,000 ceramic coating charge on the paperwork not discussed in negotiations. Both dealers said they do this to all the cars. When I complained, Ford said they would let me have it for cost $550.00. I said no. In both cases I had the charge removed. I bought a new 2023 Outer Banks for $6500 off plus an additional significant dealer discount.

Always threaten to walk if anything looks fishy. Or. walk just for the hell of it. Also, always ask to see the dealer invoice. It does not tell the whole story due to dealer incentives and other dealer perks but it is a good starting point -- comparing the window sticker with the dealer price.
Sponsored

 
 





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